Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Are We There Yet?

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  • Emma Hart,

    Taking such a myopic view of religion isn't becoming.

    That's a really strange thing to say. This thread isn't about religion, it's about gay marriage. Religion has only been discussed as it relates to discrimination against gay people. Tess's presence meant the emphasis was going to be on the Catholic Church, and its legitimacy as a moral guardian, its right to dictate who is and isn't suitable to raise children.

    You can call that myopic if you like. Or you could consider the phrase 'on topic'. I haven't even discussed my own religion's attitude to homosexuality - because it wasn't relevant.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Taking such a myopic view of religion isn't becoming.

    Isn't becoming? FFS! Now we have to be polite and look nice when discussing a fundamental human rights failure, a failure that is positively embraced by many religions.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1447 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Joe - I felt being a bit snarky was a fitting response to someone whos critique of her writing of love and inclusiveness resorted to addresseng her sex life.
    She has to deal with the Patriachy of the Catholic Faith constantly and is a shining light of hope and change.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Joe - I felt being a bit snarky was a fitting response to someone whos critique of her writing of love and inclusiveness resorted to addresseng her sex life.
    She has to deal with the Patriachy of the Catholic Faith constantly and is a shining light of hope and change.

    OK, couple of points. First, the Sister by definition doesn't have a sex life. To her credit she doesn't appear to presume to advise couples on specifics, but her bizarre use of the archaic term "biracial" gives the impression that perhaps she ought to get out more often. Seriously, it's way past the time to be making allowances for those among the 'faithful' who cling to such notions.

    More importantly, what do you take from her writings that challenges the catholic patriarchy? I don't detect any sense of urgency there, in fact I'd say she's downright timid in her bland avoidance of challenging papal authority.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    It's about full participation in the guts of the business of being human.

    I just want to repeat this because of how perfectly you have nailed it.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Has this been posted yet? I lost track.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Amy Gale,

    I'm constantly surprised that people are still opting for marriage in NZ, now that CUs are available. Why wouldn't you go for the non-discriminatory option, given the choice?

    I wonder whether some people have a lingering sense that if they get CUed then their grandparents (etc) won't understand the significance.

    I think they'd be wrong, mind. If you've seen a depression and a world war and the moon landing and now you have a computer and Sky TV, how is a Civil Union hard to take in?

    tha Ith • Since May 2007 • 471 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Nice point, Amy. It's so conventional to pigeonhole those older than us as somehow knowing less than we do, when as you say, they've pretty much seen it all. Likely they have different words for it, but they know what's up.

    Now for some reason I'm thinking about Ursula LeGuin's piece about how a grandmother would make the best interstellar ambassador...

    (And trying to square this in my head with the youth-correlated demographic shift towards not giving a toss about people's sexuality, though. Is it possible if you asked the survey questions in slightly different ways, older people would "mind" less about universal marriage?).

    (Oh, and: I'm using "universal marriage" by analogy with universal design -- not sure the analogy entirely works, but it's a start).

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1472 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    It's so conventional to pigeonhole those older than us as somehow knowing less than we do, when as you say, they've pretty much seen it all.

    Yeah, having lived through a depression and two world wars did not in any way interfere with my grandmother's being a judgemental bitch.

    OTOH, I do get slightly annoyed by the assumptions people make about my mother on the basis of her age. She has more gay friends than I do. So I guess we're left not being able to draw conclusions about individuals on the basis of their age?

    the youth-correlated demographic shift towards not giving a toss about people's sexuality

    That'd be a side-effect of young people all being so self-centred and out for themselves, right? They actually don't care.

    Okay, I'm off for some tongue/cheek surgery.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Yeah, having lived through a depression and two world wars did not in any way interfere with my grandmother's being a judgemental bitch.

    Snap! (But the other one, very Catholic, was totally right on. Go figure.)

    So I guess we're left not being able to draw conclusions about individuals on the basis of their age?

    Yeah, true... uh... and some of my best friends are Old People? I swear I had a more subtle point, but my critical acumen is suffering after a week alone with feral young.

    </special pleading>

    I think I was thinking of stories my other grandmother told me about some unique households/families in her extended family; and someone I know whose great-grandfather's marriage options were limited to broom-jumping; and this story which has stuck in my head all the years since I read it; and plenty of other unconventional set-ups... I dunno, it all made sense in my head and linked directly to the universal design idea, which seemed like a nifty analogy for a set of protections any given household might invoke, at least in a world in which "marriage" was not the only or indeed the ultimate sanction of a relationship.

    Or something.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1472 posts Report Reply

  • Amy Gale,

    Yeah, having lived through a depression and two world wars did not in any way interfere with my grandmother's being a judgemental bitch.

    For sure, there is no guaranteed link between having seen plenty and being cool with it all.

    I'm reminded now of the last time I visited my grandparents and ended up watching Eastenders with them. I don't watch normally, so my Grandmother was having to explain to me that X was transexual, Y was shacked up with Z but used to live with A, and so forth. Goodness. I hope someone's thinking of the children.

    tha Ith • Since May 2007 • 471 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    People may turn to gay relationships if their original relationships don't work out.

    And it even works the other way -- after I caught my first live-in boyfriend fucking my (ex-)best friend in our bed, I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

    Heterosexuality: you're doin' it wrong. It's meant to last twice that long.

    (If you found this advice useful, please consider making a donation.)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Oh Craig. Bless, bless, and bless again.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

    Heterosexuality: you're doin' it wrong. It's meant to last twice that long.

    Wow. You guys must really be into some Sting-and-Trudie Tantric-sex type stuff.

    Right.....?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

    Heterosexuality: you're doin' it wrong. It's meant to last twice that long.

    You realise I'm filing these away for later use, right?

    (I had to. We were on 799 comments.)

    Actually, I can back Craig up on this one. I had consolatory straight sex with one of my girlfriend's friends after things went particularly pear-shaped. Oddly, it didn't teach her a lesson.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Hosking,

    Wow. You guys must really be into some Sting-and-Trudie Tantric-sex type stuff.

    Nah, mate, that's too weird. But if you concentrate on thinking of your top All Black team of the 1970s you can make it last six whole minutes.

    Any longer though the tea gets cold.

    South Roseneath • Since Nov 2006 • 830 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Any longer though the tea gets cold.

    Any longer you'd just be showing off, really.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    But if you concentrate on thinking of your top All Black team of the 1970s you can make it last six whole minutes.

    Going, Going, gone?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    That 70s All Black team is easy except for... Fullback.

    Lets wait until the outcome of the Bain trial is released before deciding on that one.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Stewart,

    I liked a comment (unattributed, sorry) that Tantric sex was like expecting a plumber to come round to fix something...you spend all day in but no-one comes.

    Te Ika A Maui - Whakatane… • Since Oct 2008 • 577 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Here's one for Bob Mcs crusade:

    Woman beat young son with ladle
    The woman had previously pleaded not guilty to a charge of assault with intent but pleaded guilty to an amended lesser charge of assault yesterday.


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2474515/Woman-beat-young-son-with-ladle

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Here's one that's actually relevant. Know who's in favour of gay marriage now? Dick Cheney.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    By all accounts he's been for a while, it's just that now he's at liberty to say it without contravening party policy.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    By all accounts he's been for a while, it's just that now he's at liberty to say it without contravening party policy.

    It's quite refreshing that it's been so long I can't remember properly, but I think his previous public position was 'we should let the states decide' and a preference for civil unions.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

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