Women don't want meaningless sex. We want puppies and rainbows and chocolate and poetry. To think otherwise is to not be a real woman.

http://gaynz.com/blog/redqueen/archives/926

...any comments??

Hmm, strange that, running an establishment that incorporates a bar when you are a confessed alcoholic who told a national television audience that you were still taking it one day at a time. I'm not?

this column suffers slightly from having had some difficult last-minute changes made to it because of what I am almost 100% sure has been some heavy toning-down of the Pundit column. I could be wrong, but it doesn't appear to be today what I read yesterday.

I'm sure you could?

I expect most women have virtually no idea?

Also. Men?

I expect most women have virtually no idea what I'm talking about and imagine that a brothel resembles a strip club, somewhere you can have a big party and a laugh

Ben, the Listener article contains some description from Corkery of what she wants the venue to be like -?

Also. Men paying women for sex = degrading to women. However, women paying men for sex = degrading to women. Wuh?

Surely this is obvious? All women are high on a pedestal, and pretty much anything "naughty" or "icky" they do lowers them to a greater or lesser degree, and?

Also. Men paying women for sex = degrading to women. However, women paying men for sex = degrading to women. Wuh?

Because a key traditional role of women in most societies is to wash away men's sins?

So she either anticipates a lot of custom, or to charge like a wounded bull.

$240/hour. Which is considerably less than Shady Lady charges, but I assume that's the base rate and there would be "extras".

People who strip for crowds and people who fuck for money are not the?

Because a key traditional role of women in most societies is to wash away men's sins?

I believe those services are also available in brothels, but cost extra?

We want puppies and rainbows and chocolate and poetry.

There's a limerick in there but I'm just not talented enough to find it

and on no account looking at or talking to each other

Just like the men's toilets then.

Piece on a new book on Vivien Leigh " Damn You, Scarlett O'Hara" by Darwin Porter and Roy Moseley in DomPost this morning mentions an alleged pastime of dear Viv visiting a certain...."service station"....Yum.

One review is Here.

Leigh also developed a taste for sex with anonymous younger men whom she picked up at Scotty's Garage, which had one petrol pump for legal reasons and up to 22 male attendants.

So... many... filthy... puns. "Fill her up?"

They are at The White House, I believe, and Ren was perfectly happy in her outcall stripping days to escalate to sex for money.

I'll have to check that out. The way I heard it was that they were two separate businesses run next door to each other, but I?

I wouldn't hold out much hope for the brothel side of things – if there was money to be made it already would be being made.

I agree. A lot of the time, you can't even give it away.

I agree. A lot of the time, you can't even give it away.

You need a decent pimp, son. Pammy could square your mangina away 5 times a night for $240 an hour. Apparently.

The strip shows could do OK but I wouldn't hold out much hope for the brothel side of things – if there was money to be made it already would be being made.

Is there a mid-point in intimate-touching-allowed strip shows?

Is there a mid-point in intimate-touching-allowed strip shows?

Yes, it's about halfway down the stairs with all your teeth missing.

So....I went searching on Youtube. I haven't found it yet...but I think you mgiht like it all the same.

[[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUsVfcxiI9Y | This is a?

There's a limerick in there but I'm just not talented enough to find it

Bart, here's my effort:

__We want puppies and rainbows and chocolate and poetry
We want men in muscle shirts- no weeners like pete doherty,
They'd be sensitive and caring,
They'd be romantic and sharing,
Oh where,?

Just like the men's toilets then.

Heh, yup. Not places that encourage lingering. As for spa pools in the general lounge area, just think about it. Are you going to get into a spa pool with a bunch of strangers, half of whom are unattractive old punters who like to?

Jackie: what I was thinking about was the time that I'd had a particularly bad night, was very upset, needed to feel better about myself, and so had sex with someone stupid. I'm thinking a sex worker would have been cleaner and simpler and morally much the same.

Oh, I?

I wouldn't hold out much hope for the brothel side of things – if there was money to be made it already would be being made.

I agree. A lot of the time, you can't even give it away.

LOL There is always hope 3 4 10. Perhaps?

so as long as it is done properly, why would it not work?

Only because it never really has in NZ. That's why women are lamenting the absence of the service. If they'd been putting their money where their mouths are, I'm sure there would be lots of male brothels.?

For saying that ,if I wanted to do this, I would not open with fireworks. I suspect it will alienate some potential clients.

Doesn't Pam want to attach the brothel to a reality TV series?

I suppose, but of all the brothels I know of, they have only shut because of community upheaval. I'd suggest they are a pretty stable business.

The demand is probably stable, but I'm not so sure about the management. I've heard of several women losing everything because they mistakenly presumed?

I wouldn't visit it myself, but it would be cool just to?

Yes. So I reckon one hit wonder.Crappy reality TV, which I wouldn't be bothered to watch. Can't get behind all Truman like.Jus' sayin'

I know Rebekah Hay, Pam's production partner. She's quite emphatic that it's not a reality TV series, but a documentary about launching the business.

You could argue?

Is there a mid-point in intimate-touching-allowed strip shows?

Yes, it's about halfway down the stairs with all your teeth missing.

Okay, so I had to research this. On the internet.

When it's women who are stripping for men in Western countries, the rule is almost invariably no touching.

Not necessarily?

Is that the ginger beer Rebekah?

Indeed.

She's quite emphatic that it's not a reality TV series, but a documentary about launching the business.

Ok,so not so Truman, little bit Trumpy.? Still, look forward to your review RB. I'll pass.
If it was like Play School, I might be tempted though.

So yeah, basically, it does seem that it can be different for the ladies.

Yup, that's a lot different. But it still sounds basically like stripping. The women who strip are also usually the ones with dancer-esque bodies, whereas prostitutes come in all sizes and shapes.

I do think, however,?

emphatic that it's not a reality TV series, but a documentary

Can I just check if I have this straight....If you film something that was going to happen anyway whether cameras were present or not, and present it in a completely straight (or possibly with a slight spin), but essentially?

It sounds like a lot more fun (for them) than guys seem to have in brothels, by accounts.

Okay, so I started this whole thing to try to deal with an icky generalisation, and now I think I'm going to make one. Everything in the sex industry seems to be?

Eat Up Your Brothelly

Getting the cherry on a frosty night........a cold deflower

I've often thought that they should have a brothel where the sex workers dress up as 'windows' from the television programme Play School.

Yikes! I guess Big Ted and Little Ted have a role to play??

Yikes! I guess Big Ted and Little Ted have a role to play??

I'm sorry to have to report that Little Ted was killed in an explosion.

However, in practice, most male sex workers apparently chase the more monied gay male market ("gay for pay.") How occupational feminism and career?

I agree. A lot of the time, you can't even give it away

You're like baked beans on toast. When a woman is hungry, it's easy enough to reach into the cupboard to pull it out, but it's not necessarily very tasty, and when you're done you have to do?

You're like baked beans on toast.

On the contrary, my dear.

(That drug sidebar is still driving me crazy!!)

What's the contrary of beans on toast? Shrimps on jelly?

I knew you'd say that. :)

Everything in the sex industry seems to be different, tonally, atmospherically, when women organise it for women. The 'going to the toilet' analogy might be a good one: men go alone, don't speak, don't make eye contact.

No, I don't think that men in strip clubs are that much different.?

Also. Men paying women for sex = degrading to women. However, women paying men for sex = degrading to women. Wuh?

Yes, that is indeed wrong. But, possibly due to a thoroughly Lutheran upbringing, how about People paying people for sex = degrading to people?

People paying people for sex = degrading to people

I could never get this. Why would it be degrading? I mean so long as neither party feels that way. Obviously if you've been forced into the profession, yeah, I get that. But otherwise, what's the exact issue that you have?

"No touching the pussy"

Word! That is just wrong.

People paying people for sex = degrading to people?

As suggested by some of the earlier comments here, actually paying for it could in many cases mean upgrading, rather than degrading.

Also, belated respect to Mr Challinor for his poetic contribution. Glad I wasn't the only one to spot the?

Word! That is just wrong.

I couldn't get past this sentence:

His wife, Stephanie, who has a daughter from a previous relationship, was appalled by the attack.

What does the daughter have to do with the story? Was she dropped in a bin as well?

I could never get this. Why would it be degrading? I mean so long as neither party feels that way.

Yes, I'd agree with that caveat in principle. Although in real life? How would you know how the person you are paying for sex feels about the transaction. And what?

Syzygy – a print magazine featuring pictorial stories of gay erotica, aimed at women

Ooooh, yes ma'am, that is right up my alley. Astro-porn for the ladies!

Consisting of, presumably, "the nearly straight-line configuration of three celestial bodies [...] in a gravitational system", i.e. a trio of incredibly hot astronomer?

And what circumstances put them in that situation?

What makes people want to be dentists? In all seriousness.

Most jobs can be looked at as a form of exploitation. Because they are. And some of them more than others – factory work, farming, prostitution – are carried out sometimes by?

Most jobs can be looked at as a form of exploitation... So again I'd have to ask you – why? What is it that makes to you prostitution different?

All good points. Maybe I have a blinkered view of prostitution. Maybe it really is a free choice on the level?

Maybe there really are prostitutes that have other options, but choose this line of work instead.

I believe it is rather well documented, yes.

Syzygy? Sounds more like a magazine for women who get excited when they win at Scrabble.

Still way more erotic than Filament.

(Frankly if souls were actually a saleable commodity they'd have to get in the cue behind me to get cash money for something I have never used.)

cue the ever-prompt pedant patrol...
...and a line-up of the usual suspects,
well, cue is within cooee of queue...?

I think some of the would-be clients might feel demeaned when it came time to hand over their credit cards.

I wonder if it's not so much demeaned you'd feel, as "Crap. Yet another service I'm apparently paying a woman-tax for, since it costs me twice as much as a?

You may be almost 100% sure, but you are 100% wrong.

Perfectly prepared to accept that. The three other people I asked had the same feeling I did, that things had been changed, but it wasn't anything we could put a finger on. So to speak.

Maybe there really are?

Maybe there really are prostitutes that have other options, but choose this line of work instead.

I believe it is rather well documented, yes.

Alright, and if I were to purchase sex how do I go about ascertaining that the person I'm buying from is one of these free-choice prostitutes.?

Unless it deliberately seeks out the tourist dollar. But it's an awfully long way to fly for a bonk, unless you're just coming from Sydney for a naughty weekend (I guess?

Syzygy? Sounds more like a magazine for women who get excited when they win at Scrabble.

I think you'll find that magazine is called Quixotry.

Not maybe, Martin. There ARE. That's as inarguable as there being people in sex work who are there because they have no other options. But my Favourite Sex Worker has two degrees and a decently-earning spouse. Well-educated articulate sex-workers aren't exactly hard to find on the net

Yes, I expressed?

Alright, and if I were to purchase sex how do I go about ascertaining that the person I'm buying from is one of these free-choice prostitutes. As opposed to some Lilya 4-ever slave?

Here, I'd start with the Prostitutes Collective. Ask them who the good employers are. Alternately, find a?

Syzygy? Sounds more like a magazine for women who get excited when they win at Scrabble.

It was the title of an X Files episode. That's all I know about it.

What makes people want to be dentists? In all seriousness.

Well, I'm going with the idea behind this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM?

But surely that's a biased selection.

Of course it is. The point was that there ARE people who are sex workers by free choice. That appeared to be the point you were arguing against.

And get a bloke in who's really, really, really stunningly good at Scrabble.

It has just been pointed out to me that what I am really looking for is a bloke who is just slightly less brilliant than me at Scrabble.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go?

Alright, and if I were to purchase sex how do I go about ascertaining that the person I'm buying from is one of these free-choice prostitutes.

They're the ones offering their services outside Trade Aid.

in Britain, it's simpler: legally, if your sex worker has an accent, they're trafficked

Damn. That rules out the Ewan McGregor look-and-sound-alike.

Of course it is. The point was that there ARE people who are sex workers by free choice. That appeared to be the point you were arguing against.

Well, not really. Maybe I should have expressed that differently. As in: __Maybe most sex workers have other options, but choose this?

Well-educated articulate sex-workers aren't exactly hard to find on the net.

Nor are really, really stupid ones, especially ones with totally drug addled minds. These are the career prostitutes, rather than the stepping stone ones.

Anyhoo, I'm just not comfortable with the notion that buying sex is simply another monetary transaction.

I pretty much agree. I don't think it should be illegal because that causes more problems, and I don't see any real point in judging the participants, but I don't really think we'd put?

Nor are really, really stupid ones, especially ones with totally drug addled minds.

Yes, as in any business, there are foolish,stupid selfish, abused, and greedy people.Thinking back on how many sex workers I have come into contact with, I would say it was a variety of types and for the?

Anyhoo, I'm just not comfortable with the notion that buying sex is simply another monetary transaction.

I don't think you're alone, Martin.

The same goes for other exchanges of money for personal services, or even for persons, or parts of persons. Adoption, organ donation, child care, nursing care. I paid?

(If you're less utopian than me, for "joy" read "satisfaction").

After reading Sofie's comment, I should add "free lunch" into the mix :-) The value of which is not to be underestimated.

It has just been pointed out to me that what I am really looking for is a bloke who is just slightly less brilliant than me at Scrabble.

Oh Jolisa. I would lose gracefully and it wouldn't cost you a cent. :-o

Oh Jolisa. I would lose gracefully and it wouldn't cost you a cent. :-o

A very kind offer, but I already have a man wot does :-)

If you're less utopian than me, for "joy" read "satisfaction".

Moi. Poor simple male. Now it would probably start a war but it could be an interesting thread. But.........

What IS "satisfaction"?

Ask me if I'd rather a child of mine became a prostitute or a banker, I'd probably have to say – what kind of prostitute? and what kind of banker?

But that wasn't what I asked. It was whether you'd be proud to tell everyone about it. If people asked?

But that wasn't what I asked. It was whether you'd be proud to tell everyone about it.

Would I ever brag about a child of mine being a banker? I doubt it. I'd brag about them being happy though, no trouble at all.

Well-educated articulate sex-workers aren't exactly hard to find on the net.

Nor are really, really stupid ones, especially ones with totally drug addled minds. These are the career prostitutes, rather than the stepping stone ones.

Yes. I've heard alarming things about about one well-known Auckland establishment keeping its staff on?

I think I'm correct in supposing that that sort of scenario has become considerably less likely to occur since law reform.

Indeed — and I'm pretty sure you've been around the media long enough that you've plenty of (off the record) stories to tell about sociopathic bosses who got off?

Yes. I've heard alarming things about about one well-known Auckland establishment keeping its staff on P — handily meaning they (a) need money all the time, and (b) aren't in a mental or emotional state to make good choices.

They're not necessarily going to be the least bit unwilling about?

Yes. I wouldn't tell anyone if mine were a banker. Hell, it's embarrassing enough having family that has a Realtor!

Heh, OK, so the nation doesn't need any more bankers, either. But they should be allowed, and helped to get out of it if that's what they want. I saved?

One of the requirements for being able to receive the unemployment benefit is that you are trying to find work. WINZ will even help you?

Should WINZ require people to be sex workers? It's legal, after all.

Ah, yes... I remember having a rather terse conversation with a WINZ case worker about how putting a newly-sober alcoholic to work in a pub might not work well for anyone. :)

Should WINZ require people to be sex workers? It's legal, after all.

Have you known me to agree with the proposition that WINZ should require people to do work that they don't want to do?

But you know, there are a lot of other jobs that are there for the?

But I don't see dentists standing around on K Road soliciting work every morning as I walk to work.?

Equality? Sure, but ...

I was in Bunnings recently with my man. At the till, I pulled out my money, the check out girl commented with a smile " That's good of you to pay, he should really" I commented " Why? Don't you like being equal in society? Why?

But society's unhealthy attitude to sex notwithstanding, that doesn't reflect badly on them.

I don't think it's a given that feeling prostitution is an undesirable outcome for people is an unhealthy attitude to sex. That's like saying that feeling stink about them working in a coal mine for peanuts is?

That's like saying that feeling stink about them working in a coal mine for peanuts is an unhealthy attitude to work. Or that being ashamed to have a mad gambler for offspring is an unhealthy attitude to gambling.

I know you're an intelligent person, so would you care to try?

Emma has linked on this thread and in the past to the writings of sex workers whose experiences diverge greatly from the one you're trying to paint here.

Yes, I read those and I'm happy to acknowledge that those experiences are valid. They just don't tally with what I see?

The women who strip are also usually the ones with dancer-esque bodies

You, my friend, have clearly not been entertained by the ladies of La Chatte Gentlemen's Club in Houston, Texas.

Sure, but if anyone is reflected badly upon by sex trade it's the buyer – not the seller (IMHO).

Why? I knew a rent boy one of whose regulars (and a perfect gentleman) was an elderly man who only came to terms with his homosexuality very late in life, and?

They just don't tally with what I see on a daily basis.

And what is it that you see on a daily basis? Do you clean windows or install phones at escort agencies? Do you work at an AIDS clinic, or do pro bono legal work for a prostitutes' union??

There are occupations that you boast about at those hypothetical cocktail parties, there are those that you mention in passing, and then there are the ones where you try and change the subject: prostitute, IRD?

And what is it that you see on a daily basis?

What I see: (as I said upthread):

But I don't see dentists standing around on K Road soliciting work every morning as I walk to work. I see some of the most vulnerable and desperate women (mostly) in society.?

I guess we live in different parts of our respective towns.

No, actually I lived next to the Alfa Romeo motor car factory, if you must know. In that area street prostitution at the moment is controlled by an Albanian crime ring I believe. But the point is that both?

But the point is that both of us only see what happens at street level. Prostitution happens in a lot of places that you don't see.

True.

They just don't tally with what I see on a daily basis. I don't know how representative those blogged experiences are.

As Giovanni has pointed out, street prostitution isn't representative either. We're lucky enough to have fabulous solid data about prostitution in New Zealand, and 11% of prostitutes are street?

So, nothing to brag about then. Perhaps 'having sex for money' falls?

Nobody has ever said this isn't the case. In fact I think you'll find I said the opposite. It still doesn't make prostitution "wrong" for everyone and in absolute terms.

I don't think that's what Ben has said at all, and I think it's worth at least respecting his direct?

We're lucky enough to have fabulous solid data about prostitution in New Zealand, and 11% of prostitutes are street workers...

Thanks Emma, that's interesting. I'll concede that my view on prostitution is coloured by the street workers I see. And no, I don't actually know what goes on in their?

Let's go for the mid-ground...

But as a purely logical matter, simply pointing to individuals who are happy, well adjusted prostitutes with blogs does very little to substantiate any claims one may want to make about?

And I guess one difference between dentistry, banking and prostitution is that only one of those professions would be likely to be chosen by someone who was looking to support a P-habit.

I'm going to guess that members of all three of those professions support a P habit in NZ.?

rather than putting words in his mouth.

"What's inherently wrong with finding out your son is sucking cocks for a living?"... "Being denied to work in a whorehouse is something you'd probably get over"... I don't think it qualifies as me putting words in Ben's mouth to be completely honest.?

And I respect his experience just fine. It's not as if I have this image that every prostitute is Shirley McLaine and every pimp is Jack Lemmon, you know. I'd just like it if part of the picture didn't become all of the picture by virtue of shrewd wordplay.

He's?

I'm going to guess that members of all three of those professions support a P habit in NZ. Banking and dentistry are probably harder to get into and make enough money off if you've already got the habit however.

Quite. I imagine the approach to care and support is a?

I expect he's correct in saying that these are phrases the sex workers he has spoken to use themselves.

Goody, shall we start using the "n" word then? Really. But it's not even how offensive the blanket use of those terms is, it's that they were designed to reduce all?

Eh? I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Cocaine is a pretty upmarket drug. Would you say that practicing law is bad because some people use it to support their cocaine habit? I'm just confused now.

Have you known many methamphetamine addicts? They're vulnerable in some pretty?

I'd just like it if part of the picture didn't become all of the picture by virtue of shrewd wordplay.

This is what happens with this debate, on both sides, pretty much everywhere, not just at PA. Each side believes they're presenting a piece of the picture that the other?

Goody, shall we start using the "n" word then?

Okay, forget it. I'm out of this conversation.

Really. But it's not even how offensive the blanket use of those terms is, it's that they were designed to reduce all sex workers to the sex workers that Ben knows.

I don't?

I'm going to guess that members of all three of those professions support a P habit in NZ. Banking and dentistry are probably harder to get into and make enough money off if you've already got the habit however.

I'm sure they are. But if you weren't already a dentist?

Someone in a debate in another forum a while back asked people to consider if, in their perfect future utopia, there would be sex work. And after what I've learned over the last five years or so, I'd have to say 'yes'.

You're back! Yay!

My answer would also emphatically?

you're simply refusing to acknowledge that he might have some idea what he's talking about.

No, actually. It was a discussion on what kind of job prostitution is, in which I said it's not all exploitation, and in which he said would you be proud if your son sucked dick?

Can't help defending the underdog.

Hey! That's what I was doing! ;-)

You're back! Yay!

What, you're not enjoying this? We could talk about... copyright? Cycling? Slut-shaming?

Also on the subject of balance. (I've been baking, and thinking.) When I look at the figures I linked to before (I love me some sweet, sweet data, it's true), what strikes me is that?

Each sees the other as universalising a particular experience when neither actually is, so in attempting balance you just end up skewing wildly between two extremes.

Balance is always worth attempting. Otherwise you risk falling into the same trap as Martin did with his original comment.

Why does the size?

Balance is always worth attempting.

Absolutely. But not easy. I think it requires tempering what you think you're hearing as well as what you're saying.

I am not sure any decent utopia would have work, sex or otherwise.

Having watched my mother deal with "retirement" (HA!) some people appear to?

The section related to entering and leaving the industry (which includes figures on drug addiction) is here, but the table formatting is borked and it's giving me headaches.

It also gives me a headache when the go for "reasons" rather than "main reason". I mean who isn't going to use?

Entry into sex work

Entry into sex work was predominantly for financial reasons:

• 73% of participants needed money to pay for household expenses.
• Financial incentives were more important to female sex workers than to male or transgender sex workers.
• Nearly?

Does anyone have any data on the number of users of prostitution services?

But if you can't make an argument that it should be bigger, then perhaps you are obliged to conclude that it should be smaller.

I'm back to why does size matter. Shouldn't we want to improve it, rather than shrink it or enlarge it? I'd say the way to make?

* 39% of survey participants enjoyed the sex.

Boy, wouldn't it be nice to ask that question to all workers across all industries and compare the results.

Which I suppose would lead us into a debate on what we mean by "work"...

Hmmm....Ok.... maybe we could have a discussion on what "work satisfaction" might mean then.

My guess would be a fairly low percentage of the population, but I am only basing that on those that I know.

Well we know what rest home operators think don't we. Remember the bloke who wanted a bit on the side and the operators tut tutted and (I think)?

* 39% of survey participants enjoyed the sex.

Boy, wouldn't it be nice to ask that question to all workers across all industries and compare the results.

There are surveys for that. Statistics New Zealand 2008 Survey of Working Life:

Satisfaction with main job:

Of all employed people, 84.1 percent?

is it actually something you'd be proud to tell you family that your (grown up) kids were doing? Why not? What's inherently wrong with finding out your son is sucking cocks?

The sex worker survey didn't ask whether or not they enjoyed or were satisfied with their work, they asked what the good bits and the bad bits were.

Good – because honestly who always enjoys or is "satisfied" with what they do for a living. I supported prostitution law reform?

Good – because honestly who always enjoys or is "satisfied" with what they do for a living.

About 84.1% of people if you believe the survey Russell quote above (and if you drop the always). But yes, anyone will have parts of their job they don't enjoy.

And I guess one difference between dentistry, banking and prostitution is that only one of those professions would be likely to be chosen by someone who was looking to support a P-habit

I understood that bankers have an abiding interest in taking LSD...
...or is?

I understood that bankers have an abiding interest in taking LSD...

Shorthand for Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

Shorthand for Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

well ok, I'm sure they got up to speed with the dexies-mal system, too...

I'm sure they got up to speed with the dexies-mal system

come on, I loan?