Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: It's Not Sex, and It's Not Education

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  • Lilith __, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    Derived from the names, I reckon – “jock” as in “jockstrap” definitely is.

    But Jock’s also a name…!

    So, in the case of ‘a good rogering’, we think there might have been a particularly…prolific Roger?

    Immortality...of a kind :-)

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3470 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    there typically one chooses an english name from a list when you start english classes

    I like how they change when they feel like it too. A lady who I know told me her son no longer liked Roger and was changing to Bob. He is 6 now.
    Of family and names, I have a Father called Joe, a Brother called Joe, an Uncle called Joe and a cousin called Joe.( read Jose' Jose' Jose' Jose') Creative, much?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6320 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    (the chance of pregnancy is probably already zero since women are fertile less than half the time).

    Speaking of unhelpful things to tell kids? Yeeeeeeeeeeah. That.

    Yeah, because an inexplicable design flaw in the human female is their utter failure to bioluminesce when their love ovens are hot and ready to start baking that baby batter. I assume the manufacturer will correct this defect in the next firmware patch.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12052 posts Report Reply

  • JackElder,

    Pfft... I used to work with an American called Roger Wank Dogfelcher III. I didn't have the heart to tell him.

    Slightly more seriously, I did actually used to work with someone with the last name "Fuchs". I'd kind of assumed that it was pronounced 'fyookes', but it turned out to be, well, 'fucks'. Sort of thing that's funny the first time you hear it, then becomes a non-issue (like giggling the first time you see Cockfosters on a tube map).

    Wellington • Since Mar 2008 • 708 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Oh, love ovens. I do love you so.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3123 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to JackElder,

    This dude takes a lot of beating.

    Um, so to speak.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Lilith __,

    But Jock’s also a name…!

    Yeah, that's what I mean - the name came before the item of clothing. At some point, penises started being called jocks, hence jockstrap. (Current American usage carries on blissfully unaware of this point.)

    I’ve asked God to incorporate this feature into the next firmware update.

    Can he also get onto that whole pesky appendix thing? That'd be ace.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    Speaking of unhelpful things to tell kids? Yeeeeeeeeeeah. That.

    OK, apparently I'm unusual in preferring reality-based sex education. You know, "now with actual facts". And I sat there in high school going "I know you're a PE teacher but FFS, this stuff is pretty basic". What I learned was that our maths teacher was a more reliable guide to sex than the official sex ed teacher. And that a pregnant 15 year old looks really, really dumb, even if she was in the academic stream.

    So, what do you do when one kid says "condoms are not allowed by my religion, so my parents use the rhythm method. How does that work?" And do you mislead about how ovulation works so that it looks as though women are fertile more of the time, or do you just hope that kids don't put the picture together?

    And do you pretend that the STDs that can be transferred when condoms are used, don't exist? Or that condoms stop them? Do you mention that condoms can break? If you mention that, do you explain that that means STD transmission or do you just pretend that the morning after pill also magically cures STDs as well? Or do you just prevaricate and change the subject, because this is all too advanced?

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 497 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    So, in the case of ‘a good rogering’, we think there might have been a particularly…prolific Roger?

    So you would think a good smutty stage name would be Roger Moore weird thing is, it's his real name.

    The wireless north ;-) • Since Dec 2006 • 4941 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    Interesting indeed. I had no idea the rates of chlamydia were so low, and the chances of actual damage given the infection also so low.

    Does that mean we have conversations with kids about relative risk and how seatbelts don't always stop you dying? No. We don't.

    I disagree. It's good for kids to know that seatbelts don't make them invulnerable.

    I don't disagree that the general message to young people should be "try to wear a condom as much as possible, it substantially reduces your chances of some sexually transmitted diseases". But there's danger in refusing to acknowledge the problems with condoms. The obvious danger is that they will simply not be used when the problems arise. This is not a hypothetical danger, it is in fact exactly what happens.

    Rates of STIs are high in NZ. Some of that might be down to unsafe sexual practices, but some of it might also be down to poor screening and treatment accessibility and education, so undiagnosed people go around infecting people for lengthy periods.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8659 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    This dude takes a lot of beating.

    Ah, yes, that name in the Buffy credits you were never quite sure if you read correctly. ;-)

    The last name “Fuchs”

    Leonhart Fuchs gives his name to fuchsias. BTW I think "Fooks" are what Merivale couples have when they're feeling randy.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3470 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    the name came before the item of clothing. At some point, penises started being called jocks, hence jockstrap.

    And here I was thinking it was derived from "Jockey", the brand.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 801 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    The obvious danger is that they will simply not be used when the problems arise. This is not a hypothetical danger, it is in fact exactly what happens.

    Again, you seem to be over-generalising your experience.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16838 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Lilith __,

    "Fooks" are what Merivale couples have when they're feeling randy

    amidst the buckets of fuchsias

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16838 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Moz,

    And do you mislead about how ovulation works so that it looks as though women are fertile more of the time, or do you just hope that kids don’t put the picture together?

    Dude, I am 33, have been menstruating since I was 15, and my periods are still incredibly irregular. I have a shit show of knowing when I am ovulating. I'd rather no kid got taught 'don't worry, 25/31 days, you can't knock her up'. That's pretty dangerous roulette to be playing.

    Or do you just prevaricate and change the subject, because this is all too advanced?

    Who is advocating that? Aren't we asking for as much information to be given as possible?

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings, in reply to Moz,

    do you mislead about how ovulation works so that it looks as though women are fertile more of the time, or do you just hope that kids don’t put the picture together?

    Given that sperm can live almost a week, that ovulation can be hard to spot and that libido is directly tied to fertility for a lot of women an act of unprotected sex has a waaaay bigger than 1/28 chance of leading to pregnancy therefore the advice to use contraception for every act of PIV sex still holds up.

    I think that advice about the downsides of condoms (and other contraceptives) should be solution based so that instead of saying "condoms suck" you are saying "here are some things to try to improve your condom-using experience".

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 706 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Moz,

    OK, apparently I’m unusual in preferring reality-based sex education. You know, “now with actual facts”.

    The actual fact that teenagers are pretty fucking fertile, that the rhythm method is not suitable for them, that condoms are the only form of contraception that provides protection against STDs? Those facts, you mean?

    No-one is arguing for teenagers to not be told things. They are arguing for them to be told that for them to achieve maximum safety from STDS, while having penetrative sex, they must use condoms. You have failed to come up with any argument against that. They are the only thing that works.

    It's like you think sex educators don't worry about how to increase uptake of condoms and contraceptives generally, don't want kids to be informed, don't want people to not get STDs or have unwanted pregnancies. Does it actually occur to you that just maybe the people who spend their lives working with teenagers and educating them about sex, the people who measure success and failure by how many people they see who catch STDs or are pregnant and don't want to be - that those people might have more of an idea of you what's medically advisable and what works?

    This is not a hypothetical danger, it is in fact exactly what happens.

    Happened to you, or happens to a lot of people? Those are different things, and you're not showing any evidence of the latter. Just a lot of repetition of the former.

    It also doesn't solve the problem that condoms are the only barrier against serious STDs. I have advocated multiple times in this thread for education about other sexual options, that don't require condom use, and for condom use being essential to specific situations. How would you slow the increase in STDs in New Zealand?

    <q>Interesting indeed. I had no idea the rates of chlamydia were so low, and the chances of actual damage given the infection also so low.<q/>

    You have a very odd definition of "low", when it comes to disease risk. Remember: a lot of people are never diagnosed, because they're asymptomatic. They find out when they find out they have pelvic scarring. The fun way.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    I have a shit show of knowing when I am ovulating.

    Seriously. Finding out when you're ovulating is quite a complex business even for people who have regular periods. I spent quite some time trying to get pregnant based on an ovulation date you would assume from 'fact-based' education was right. It wasn't. So do we issue all sexually active heterosexual teen girls with basal body temperature thermometers, or recommend something considerably less complicated?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3662 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings, in reply to Danielle,

    Seriously. Finding out when you’re ovulating is quite a complex business even for people who have regular periods.

    I found pinpointing ovulation quite easy...after carefully reading a very thick book and practicing for several months whilst paying great attention to detail and being totally unsqueamish about closely examining bodily fluids. Not exactly stuff i could have managed as a horny and impulsive young adult.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 706 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Isabel Hitchings,

    I can imagine these new classes sex educators are going to run. "Are you DTF? Well, first closely examine your cervical mucous to see if it is of egg-white consistency!"

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3662 posts Report Reply

  • Peter Darlington, in reply to JackElder,

    There's no mistaking pronunciation here:

    Fucks off to Benfica
    Eurosport.com, 2001

    Journeyman Brazilian defender Argelico Fucks earned legendary journalistic status with his controversial move to Benfica in 2001 having left their sworn rivals Porto only a year earlier.

    Fucks spiced things up a bit by declaring Porto were now his enemy. Known as Argel during his playing career Fucks was a favourite of headline writers who created more gems when he returned to Brazil. Go on think...

    And I have to include this real headline from Soccernet, just because...

    Young Boys Wankdorf Erection Relief
    Soccernet, 2005

    Swiss side Young Boys of Bern moved into their new stadium to much acclaim which inspired some double entendre word play from the team at Soccernet.

    It wasn't the first time they'd wheeled out the line as two years earlier when Young Boys were refused temporary setting at their old Neufield venue they led with, 'Young Boys' Wankdorf Erection Woe.'

    Yes, Young Boys play at the Wankdorf Stadium *coughs*, what are you gonna do..

    Nelson • Since Nov 2006 • 892 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa, in reply to Danielle,

    So do we issue all sexually active heterosexual teen girls with basal body temperature thermometers, or recommend something considerably less complicated?

    I'm a firm advocate of everyone knowing what's going on under the hood (speaking of which, see also rhymes with glitterous, not Dolores) so I reckon all pubescent girls (and boys) should be taught the entirety of the menstrual cycle, not just the bloody bits. I belatedly found it wildly empowering.

    That said, it's not necessarily information you can expect people to assimilate or use immediately. Even with a Mum who was a Natural Family Planning instructor (all those dinky little booklets and sets of coloured stickers, some with babies on!) I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in that information until I was deliberately trying to get pregnant. I much preferred the more reliable (and frankly handier) Unnatural Family Planning methods during the time when I was not.

    It's amazing stuff, though. Like the bit about how during the fertile part of the cycle, the cervix apparently elongates, softens, opens up and (during orgasm) swoops down like a sort of giant sperm-sucking squid? That's a cool antidote to the prevailing narrative that the whole arrangement is just a passive, quiet little space, waiting patiently for a willy to come along and rock its world.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1427 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Uh, basically, what Isabel said.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1427 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    No-one is arguing for teenagers to not be told things. They are arguing for them to be told that for them to achieve maximum safety from STDS, while having penetrative sex, they must use condoms. You have failed to come up with any argument against that. They are the only thing that works

    I think there's no argument against that, none whatsoever. But I also think that doesn't provide license to dismiss the fact that for some men more than others, condoms significantly impair sexual function.

    There are ways around that -- from trying to find a better-fitting condom (not easy) to discussing other things to do in bed and choosing monogamous relationships -- but it's not a non-issue. It should be okay to talk about.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19019 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Back to the sexy referencing: it turns out that, you’d never have guessed, but people do research on this stuff, and ask people questions about why they don’t use condoms.

    It seems that teenage girls are often coerced into unwanted unprotected sex, men report more condom use than women, and personal reluctance is a factor, but not the most important one, in condom non-usage. Actual physical inability to use one is not mentioned in any study I could find.

    Pretty much every study I could find – and I just did a search on PubMed, it’s publicly available, do it yourself – focused on lack of information and power in negotiation as the key factors behind non-use of condoms. Now it’s possible that sex researchers for the last twenty years have got it totally wrong, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest they might be onto something. (Some of them are even…men.)

    But I also think that doesn’t provide license to dismiss the fact that for some men more than others, condoms significantly impair sexual function.

    The research above doesn’t tend to back that up, but assuming that’s true: of course it’s worth discussing. But it’s worth discussing in a context of “you should use condoms, but if you really can’t, here are other options”, not “there’s a good chance you’re not going to like condoms, so…”

    Condom usage is already problematic enough in a lot of populations without priming the well, so to speak. And I’m sceptical that if this really were a significant problem for a lot of men, there’d be no research showing up – sexual dysfunction of any sort is hardly an ignored field, and men’s sexual health even more so. I’d love to see any references anyone could dig up, but I couldn’t find anything.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

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