Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible Demure Lady Stroll

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  • recordari,

    Lots one could say about this, but what I will say is thank you. If even one more person gets this, in a not misogynist douchebaggy kind of way, our three daughters will have a better chance in life.

    When you see the yelling going on elsewhere, and people name calling because their little sensitivities have been hurt (boohoo), this thread is refreshingly grown up so far. Unless I missed a whole lot of redaction.

    Good luck with all the signs, costumes and getting the message across.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    It occurs to me that this wouldn't be a bad place for a shout out to Metiria Turei and the Green Party, with whom I'm not affiliated, for not sending an emissary to the Destiny Church Conference at the weekend. Seeing Shane Jones there was... dispiriting in the extreme.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Seeing Shane Jones there was... dispiriting in the extreme.

    The whole thing was decidedly troubling on levels I haven't even thought of yet.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to recordari,

    this thread is refreshingly grown up so far. Unless I missed a whole lot of redaction.

    Yes, though I would refer you to this.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    I would refer you to this.

    Did you have to? That was just before my time, but yes, seems we've come a long way [sic], through the hard times and the good, I have to celebrate you... sorry, where was I?

    Did someone say High Heels? There's one for you Craig.*

    *Might not make sense without the @MusePABlog ref, but yeah, you probably got it.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to recordari,

    Did you have to? That was just before my time, but yes, seems we've come a long way [sic], through the hard times and the good, I have to celebrate you... sorry, where was I?

    I think Megan might have been suggesting that there may have been some comments deletions in this very thread. I couldn't say.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    I think Megan might have been suggesting that there may have been some comments deletions in this very thread. I couldn’t say.

    No, no, not at all. I just meant that while everyone has so far been polite, I have little faith it will continue to be so. Certainly given some of the conversations on this topic I’ve seen of late.

    [ETA: Well, it’ll continue to be polite, there’ll just be lots of concern trolling and mansplaining. But hopefully not. I’d like to think it’ll better at PAS.]

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Seeing Shane Jones there was… dispiriting in the extreme.

    Not just there, but paying tribute. Ugh. Ugh.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18512 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    No, no, not at all. I just meant that while everyone has so far been polite, I have little faith it will continue to be so. Certainly given some of the conversations on this topic I’ve seen of late.

    Contra that, I wonder if some people are still licking their wounds. I'm not sure if that's a good result or not, but it has resulted in a very uncontentious thread so far.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 799 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    Well, it’ll continue to be polite, there’ll just be lots of concern trolling and mansplaining. But hopefully not. I’d like to think it’ll better at PAS.

    Me too. It does feel a bit in the discussion that people are being sort of dared to come in and do that, which possibly isn't the best approach.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18512 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I think for me, given some of the discussions I have seen and taken part in this past month, it's not about baiting people, but the feeling it's inevitable that they will turn up.

    Sue already linked to the website for this, but it's worth having the video here.

    The thing is, we've been having this conversation for years, and we keep being told the same things (it's incumbent on us to be safe, we live in the real world not an ideal one, etc) and I am no longer sure how we convince people.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Certainly don't want to do that. For me it's about framing the argument, and the introduction and early posts have done that well.

    Anyway, I'm sure it's not the PAS Massive's destiny to be preaching to the converted.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to recordari,

    Certainly don't want to do that. For me it's about framing the argument, and the introduction and early posts have done that well.

    Anyway, I'm sure it's not the PAS Massive's destiny to be preaching to the converted.

    Yeah, I've tried quite hard to frame the argument in order to avoid this kind of shit. (As always, the comments, not the column.) You may be able to spot the point at which I got so upset I had to leave the thread. And it's not like I was being obviously reckless and visiting Kiwiblog or Danyl's site.

    And I don't want to say, "You can't come here and say that." What I am trying to say is, you know what? We've had that conversation. If you want to have that conversation, there's every other fucking Slutwalk thread ever. Go to. Could we have a different conversation? About the times you were maybe in a bar and you saw something and thought, That doesn't look good, I wonder if I should do something? About the people you work with that you KNOW have a history of getting overly sleazy with women who are NOT happy about it?

    I mean, okay, many years ago, I was at a party. A KAOS party, so a fair amount of consensual-sexual licence. I saw someone who I was pretty sure was not happy with what was happening to them. And I did absolutely nothing.

    Partly, it was because I didn't want to embarrass myself. But also, it was because it was a guy, being set upon by three women. Even though he looked distressed, it was THAT difficult for me to read that situation as sexual harassment, because of the location of the penis.

    What I'm saying is, you know, there are almost always bystanders. Lots of us know people whose behaviour around (usually) women makes us uncomfortable. Why, so much of the time, do we just do nothing?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    The thing is, we've been having this conversation for years, and we keep being told the same things (it's incumbent on us to be safe, we live in the real world not an ideal one, etc) and I am no longer sure how we convince people.

    My impression is that people are being convinced. At least I know I was.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    My impression is that people are being convinced. At least I know I was.

    One thing I've noticed this time is a decided sideways shift from victim-blaming on the basis of clothes to victim-blaming on the basis of having had some drinks. I dunno if you'd call that progress or not.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    My impression is that people are being convinced. At least I know I was.

    Faith in humanity: restored.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    At least I know I was.

    +1

    And Emma, you lasted longer than I could. Trevor Mallard went up in my estimation though. How hard is that notion really to grasp?

    Somehow, and I really do think/hope this kind of thing helps, the starting point for these discussions has to change.

    Victim blame is an oxymoron.

    I've noticed this time is a decided sideways shift from victim-blaming on the basis of clothes to victim-blaming on the basis of having had some drinks.

    ETA: Snap-ish. If you start from victim blame, it's pretty much downhill from there, whatever justification you put on it. Living in a monogamous relationship will be next.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    About the times you were maybe in a bar and you saw something and thought, That doesn't look good, I wonder if I should do something? About the people you work with that you KNOW have a history of getting overly sleazy with women who are NOT happy about it?

    I used to work with a guy who made a number of young women in our workplace very uncomfortable. Suggestive comments, and staring, and just being generally creepy. And because he was never that way with me, I didn't say anything to our boss, because I didn't feel it was my place. But neither could I convince anyone else to. And I've always wondered if I should have said something.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Russell Brown,

    It does feel a bit in the discussion that people are being sort of dared to come in and do that, which possibly isn't the best approach.

    If this debate manages to have clash, and yet avoid concern trolling and mansplaining, I'll be amazed.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    Also, Deborah linked to this in that Lady Garden thread, but this is a great read. (Give it a chance.)

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    it was THAT difficult for me to read that situation as sexual harassment, because of the location of the penis

    Prhps hrdr t gt s cncrnd bt t, snc fml-rp-f-ml s xtrmly nlkly (r mpssbl, dpndng n yr dfntn f rp). Th wrst tht wld hv mst lkly hppnd s tht th gy wld hv flt stnk nd vdd ths wmn n ftr.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to BenWilson,

    Ben, I'm borderline on deleting your comment. If anyone wants me to, I will. That's not even close to true. It's much rarer, but it does happen, and it is rape. And that's not the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen is that he would be deeply traumatised for a long time, just like any other sexual assault victim.

    You also appear to be assuming that "erection=consent". Not true. Only consent is consent.

    [After getting a second opinion, I've disemvowelled Ben's comment as triggering. I understand how it was meant, but I don't feel good about leaving it there intact knowing the distress it could cause.]

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    You also appear to be assuming that "erection=consent". Not true. Only consent is consent.

    For the record.

    sexual activity, in relation to a person, means—

    (a) sexual connection with the person; or
    (b) the doing on the person of an indecent act that, without the person's consent, would be an indecent assault of the person.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Emma Hart,

    You also appear to be assuming that "erection=consent".

    For further record, that is not my assumption.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • Julie Fairey, in reply to Steve Parks,

    What an interesting quote. The rapists I know off the top of my head all had present fathers. Which has as much scientific validity as the original quote's point.

    Emma, thank you for this. I'm intending to go to the Auckland event. Not sure what I'll wear, hope I have the time and inspiration to make up a wondrous sign of wit and beauty.

    I've wavered back and forth slightly on the "slut" aspect of SlutWalk, to a point where I've decided that if I'm ok with what it means for me then it doesn't matter so much what it means to other people. And what it means for me is that no one, ever, asks for or deserves rape. Neither those who appear sexually available (whatever that means) or who appear unfckable.

    Orcland • Since Dec 2007 • 216 posts Report Reply

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