Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Say When

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  • Matthew Littlewood,

    And because it's Friday, here's one of the Chic Corporation's finest:

    Today, Tomorrow, Timaru • Since Jan 2007 • 449 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Sally you have worthwhile things to say and worthwhile experiences to share and we are here to listen - not always with the attitude you may want but for most everyone here it's honest and open and after 50 years I've come to understand that's as good as it gets.

    If you offend apologise simply and quickly, if you are offended sit back and figure out why and if it really matters and then set it aside because it's only the internet and everyone gets offended here. I screw up here a lot and I'm still allowed to speak and sometimes I even say something useful, this is a forgiving environment and a place where forgiving others helps make the conversations better. I understand your anger and frustration and understand your desire to walk away but in the end you might consider that the voices here are worth listening to after all. Or not. In either case I wish you well.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    This thread has now officially driven me to the bottle. Beer o'clock.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Clayton, in reply to Rich Lock,

    Thanks for your response Rich. I'm happy to respond with an account of some of the ways in which I think feminists and their allies can organise around some of the kinds of problems you identify. This comes, of course, with the caveat that it's my opinion and experience, Y[Feminisim]MV, etc.

    To my mind, feminist approaches to industrial problems work particularly well when combined with other systems, in and outside the place of employment. This may mean engaging with HR on behalf of oneself or others, which may or may not be effective, being willing to talk to managers about specific or systemic problems, joining a union and forming a working relationship with an organiser or women's rights officer, and or joining (or starting) a women's network in the workplace. My experience has been that these things are harder to do for lower-paid women working in lower-status jobs, so part of feminist activity in the workplace is being willing to advocate for these women workers and support and encourage them as, over time, they feel more emboldened to do the same.

    I'm aware as I write this that my workplace setting - a large public institution in which I am also a union rep - is very different from that of a woman working say for a private law firm or a woman whose children are cared for outside the workplace or the home (my partner and I work non-standard hours and our daughter attends ECE on site at my workplace). So I think it's all the more important to encourage young people entering the workforce to think about what they might want for themselves, their careers and their home life in the medium term. This applies to potential fathers as well as mothers - what is the institutional culture like for them? Part of changing workplace culture is articulating one's own expectations, even if contrary to the prevailing culture, sometimes over many years. As above, some workers will need others to do this for them. This is where I think women's professional networks can be so important in that they encourage, if they work well, that spirit of cooperation and mutual help and sustain people in an unwillingness to back down.

    Women workers and workers in general have to my mind three ways in which they can push for change in everyday ways: in terms of the law, industrially and in terms of workplace culture. My personal view is that unionism is the most effective way of doing this, and that modern unions can also be places in which feminism is fostered, in pockets at least, if not intra-organisationally. To change systems and cultures in ways that might alleviate the problems you describe, I would counsel a long-term view, finding and cultivating allies, looking for intersecting networks (I am not Māori, for example, but a lot of my union work involves being an ally to Māori women staff and Māori staff more generally as best I can), being willing to talk to those one might not normally engage with (management, HR - HR staff can be feminists and allies too) and never giving up.

    I think too that fathers in the workplace need to talk more with their colleagues about their own role as parents, and similarly articulate their expectations with regard to childcare - taking on some of that need for flexibility, for example. Managing children and work is not going to get easier for women as long as male parents continue to work the status quo - and I believe that there are many working men out there who would welcome the opportunity to be more involved in childcare, to work more flexibly, to do some of the things that it is expected that working mothers have to do. Those challenges won't be spread in the Swedish fashion however until more employees are prepared to articulate this at whatever level, changing culture, policy and law.

    (I am not a frequent commenter as PAS because I favour the long-form in writing and don't wish to clog up the columnage unduly. I trust more active members will grant me this diversion.)

    Christchurch • Since Feb 2007 • 51 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Rich Lock,

    Japan and France/Scandinavia illustrate the stark contrasts of how they approach the issue of working mothers, and it shows in their fertility rates.

    Closer to home, the way forward faces the obstacle of the Whaddarya Mentality (TM), which erroneously regards stay-at-home dads as having a loser or poofter stigma. If anything, it's a subset of barefoot-and-pregnant-ism, which itself is a subset of the flourishing Ladder Kicking Syndrome.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Too true DeepRed, on both counts/all counts.

    One of my family, bloke, spent some years as a stay-at-home-dad: made very good sense, fiscally & otherwise to do so. He didnt get any borax poked at him (not least because he’s a wonderful human being, as well as being a quite wellknown shot.)
    Another person I know well has also been a house-husband – and, again, no shit has been offered (probably not least because he stands 6’7” and weighs over 25 stone). But, 2 other really neat male friends have opted to remain Dad to their children (one to one child, the other to 3 children), when their partners walked out on ’em. Both were beneficiaries, but did a lot of community work – and at various times, were nearly broken by lack of support from the official agencies.

    ETA: one of those brillant solo Dads is still on a benefit(and still making his amazing gardens for free), and all kids are out in the world, as excellently functioning adults.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Matthew Littlewood,

    What a fantastic interview! Also something I never thought I would see was Chris Trotter coming out in defence of women’s studies.

    *sigh* Well, it's all the fault of the evil right-wing cabal innit? Somehow, I find it rather implausible that the groves of academe were wilted by the winds of Clark-o-phobia. Once more, a significantly more interesting (and complex) reality-based tale cannot be allowed to get in the way of Comrade Trotter's very special world view.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Russell, thanks for that interview with John Campbell. Those of us who fought the imminent closure of the Gender and Women's Studies Dept at Victoria all last year thought it would to be great to get JC to comment, as he is well-known as a former student. Such as a sad decision to close it as anyone with the experience of being female would know. So much more to do. It was small, cost effective and had a wide-range of students across age, ethnicity and gender.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Belatedly, just watched the whole Media 7 programme last Thursday and even though it was good to highlight the issue about the GWS programme in Wellington closing I'm a a bit grrrrrrhhh about the portrayal of WS generally. It was a bit like having a discussion on autism and only asking psychologists. Why couldn't someone have been invited who at least knew about the Wellington situation? That young journalist hadn't even checked her facts. People continued to enrol in GWS in 2010 and again in 2011 in spite of it not being in the university calendar either year, and in spite of official notification of closure last year. They had to search it out. And still enrolled.

    There has been a very active group making submissions and presentations for the last year who could have been contacted to provide information through the university students' association, Facebook page or union. Many work in media related areas. There are several retired prominent feminist lecturers who might have been available. And as I mentioned above, current students cover a range of demographics and are certainly not dominated by middle class women. It is a course where you learn about lots of things including countering otherness, discrimination, oppression. So relevant to many disciplines, occupations and policy areas. End of rave.

    Now late for Giovanni's birthday.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Hilary: they did try. From what I heard it sounded like a very frustrating experience.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Emma, you have glorious tits,

    How old? When you think the tattoo you got when you were 18 needs to be put away.......

    Can I just pop in here to catch up,I know,but to express in my simple terms,
    It is NEVER too old to have glorious tits or get tattoos either, but I do think one should be able to verbally admire them any way they feel comfortable cos' as soon as you expect otherwise, well one knows where that leads..... IMO ;)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Oh and Jackie, if your family who suggest the bra are anything like your Mum, I admire your strength to stay strong sister :). You have glorious tits too! IMO :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    It's a little trick called defiance, Sof - you know that!

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Like Emma said, that was a difficult panel to wrangle. As a media show, we wanted people with a connection to journalism, and quite a few people said no. I haven't seen the show myself yet.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Russell, Emma: I know these things can be tricky, especially when time is tight. But I haven't come across anyone in the Wellington networks who was even asked for suggestions. And who would have guessed that Chris Trotter would have to be the champion for feminism on a panel about academic women's studies?

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    And who would have guessed that Chris Trotter would have to be the champion for feminism on a panel about academic women’s studies?

    Trotter was as surprised as you are, Hilary.

    But could they get anybody with a strong personal commitment to the teaching of Women’s Studies to appear on the show? Not on your Nelly! Sandra Coney and Sue Kedgely, founding mothers of Second Wave Feminism in New Zealand, declined. All the women in academia who were approached were unwilling to put their heads above the ivory parapet. Even the women at New Zealand’s premier feminist blogsite – The Hand Mirror – refused to participate.

    Really? Well, if that summary is fair, sounds like they tried.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Steve Parks,

    refused to participate

    I'd like to hear more about that

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Although important for second wave feminism in NZ, neither Sandra Coney nor Sue Kedgely are associated with the academic study of Womens Studies nor Victoria University. Unfortunately, Phillida Bunkle, one of the founders of the VUW course, is no longer in NZ, and Dr Lesley Hall, who is the last staff member of GWS and currently facing redundancy, is briefly overseas. But I would like to hear which "women in academia" were approached, after Marilyn was unavailable (although even she is not involved with what is happening in Wellington). Anne Else, Alison Laurie, Prue Hyman, Margaret Clark and Marian Evans would be among my first suggestions (all well versed in media) or those currently associated with the active Women's Studies Association or the WSJournal.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Steve Parks,

    All the women in academia who were approached were unwilling to put their heads above the ivory parapet.

    Could Trotter try not being a man-tronising douche-bag? I'm sure those invertebrate blue-stockings really welcomed Trotter restraining the urge to burn his pappy pants, but could we do the women concerned the courtesy of not assuming they declined the invitation out of rank cowardice? I'm well past the point of finding Trotter's sneering condescension towards the wimmin-folk who doesn't behave as he sees fit tiresome and obnoxious.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    And who would have guessed that Chris Trotter would have to be the champion for feminism on a panel about academic women’s studies?

    I was surprised. Indeed, it was a surprising show. Hannah's contribution differed markedly from what she'd said to our researcher.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Could Trotter try not being a man-tronising douche-bag? I’m sure those invertebrate blue-stockings really welcomed Trotter restraining the urge to burn his pappy pants, but could we do the women concerned the courtesy of not assuming they declined the invitation out of rank cowardice?

    Indeed, some of them were simply unable to make it. But others were offered the opportunity and cried off. So he wasn’t entirely wrong.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    So he wasn’t entirely wrong.

    I'll take your word for that, because you're in a better position to know. But there's also all kinds of reasons why many academics are pretty gun-shy about doing interviews they think (fairly or not) is going to end up being edited down to a meaningless sound bite and framed as some gelatin-infused cat-fight. Not how Media7 rolls, I know; but I'm a little more sympathetic to those who might not want to talk about something as contentious as department closures -- especially if there's a potential conflict of interest.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    a potential conflict of interest

    what do you reckon that could be?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    In all this, I'm still baffled that Trotter ended up in that chair. How many names were there in the phone list, four million?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    In all this, I’m still baffled that Trotter ended up in that chair. How many names were there in the phone list, four million?

    Wait for his book.

    Radom Access Memoir.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

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