(I counted them, and that is exactly one plethora.)

Reading that I'd say you've no need to worry your rhetorical flourish!

And yes, isn't this what is good about the internet: viewpoints and voices previously simplified and stereotyped (to a degree even Hollywood would find lobotomized) are heard.

There was?

And yes, isn't this what is good about the internet: viewpoints and voices previously simplified and stereotyped (to a degree even Hollywood would find lobotomized) are heard.

Indeed, it seems absolutely screamingly obvious, and yet I still see people saying things like "I don't know what these women (always women)?

I've discussed this before; the default ipso-facto image that the world as a whole uses as "Sex Worker"; the victim of childhood abuse, the junkie, the drop out, the person with no other choice, no other talents, no hope, and no where to go.

I'm just going to mull this?

And I should add that these people, in openly blogging as sex workers, open themselves up to an astonishing amount of abuse. Ren's had 'don't come crying to me when you get raped' from a radfem

Because blaming the victim of rape is such a __feminist__thing to do.

They're all women, they're all victims, they're all subject to some degree of coercion, they're all lacking real choices.

Except they're not.

Yes! On ya Emma. Sometimes I am really glad to read wise words like this. Thank you for improvin' the day. Now a glass of wine :)

Yes! On ya Emma. Sometimes I am really glad to read wise words like this. Thank you for improvin' the day. Now a glass of wine :)

Aw, thanks Sofie, that's great to hear. Have one on me.

Because blaming the victim of rape is such a feminist thing to?

I think empowerment, on a basic personal level is exactly that, personal, and some folks will find different things empowering. So, when Amber says that for her, pole dancing is very empowering, I believe her, and I can see how it would be. People have?

Ren's had 'don't come crying to me when you get raped' from a radfem.

I've always taken with a grain of salt any attempt to link rape and erotica/porno together. 'Sexual violence' seems to owe much to violence and little to sex, rather than the other way round.

From a?

But another difficult issue is how to?

Also, I think to say, as some people do, that how a man feels watching a woman pole dance is more important than how a woman feels when she's pole dancing is, well, sorry, sexist

Yes, that's a major point. And yeah, that comparison to belly dancing is quite provocative,?

So for instance, a very thin successful model could feel empowered by her work, while many women who don't conform to that repeated and widespread ideal feel undermined, disempowered and generally quite shitty as a result.

Sure, I agree with that. But I think there are a whole plethora of?

a kind of feminism that celebrates women who feel empowered pleasuring men for pay – again, fine by me, in and of itself – does give me a little pause

Y'know, I don't wanna be saying what sex-pos/third-wave feminism is 'about'. Not my job. But I think 'celebrates' is a?

One in three women uses porn, one out of every four dollars spent on porn in the US is spent by a woman.

Whoa nelly. Do you have a link or reference for that? Not because I'm doubting you or anything, I would love to know more about the money?

This is a really hard thread. And I?

Whoa nelly. Do you have a link or reference for that? Not because I'm doubting you or anything, I would love to know more about the money side of this.

http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/2008/08/06/oprah-does-porn-gamelink-gets-female-friendly/ (link has NSFW pictures in the sidebar)

On Monday, the theme of the Oprah Winfrey show was ?237 Reasons?

I'd like to start with the way ordinary women talk about each other. We've all got the power to not criticise other women for the way they dress or look, yet how many of us have occasionally said 'OMG WTF is she wearing?'

Even then (and this is probably too?

there is a summary of research on pornography here. alot to wade through, some not seemingly relevant, but there are things like this:

Regular users of pornography are more likely to think of women in stereotype, (5) as "socially non-discriminating, as?

Anjum, Do you see men that work in the sex industry as being degraded in any way?

some alternative views of pornography, if anyone is interested.

Yes that was interesting. And thanks to Emma I have found out why younger women defend porn and pole dancing – it's called third wave feminism and I didn't even know about it! Good old wikipedia gave me a bit of?

]]> Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:22:23 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65307#post65307 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65307#post65307

I am utterly bemused by the idea that a nice frock and a bit of lippy could change my life.

P'raps not your life, but your day, potentially? I've found it so.

Thanks Emma and Anjum for both sets of links. I'm tending to Anjum's side of things, if only?

Is this okay to you? That he needs porn to get aroused?

Was it for this the suffragettes lay down their lives?

Oh dear... with all due respect, Cecelia, is this the feminist argument of some Colonel Blimp huffing "is this what our boys fought and died for during the War?" :)

Still, you're quite right about one thing, I rather doubt the kind of 19th and early 20th century suffragettes who believed extending the vote to women was a natural extension of the idea of women as "the angel of the hearth" — a moral imperative to protect men from themselves — would have the slightest whit of sympathy with moral delinquents.

Is this okay to you? That he needs porn to get aroused and then uses your body – who is he really screwing? Is it just visual viagra?

Well, no it wouldn't be OK with me. Then again, I wouldn't really be happy with the sexual component of my relationship?

this is a must read

Link no worky, anjum, can you repost it?

I will get there, when I have more time, but is any of it causal? ie, we took a bunch of people(male and female), examined their attitudes towards men and women, then made them watch a bunch?

]]> Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:00:34 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65321#post65321 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65321#post65321 Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:01:00 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65322#post65322 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65322#post65322 and if you don't know, then it's possible you are a party to abuse.

If you drink coffee, there's a good chance you're a party to opression. If you use oil – by eating, driving a car, taking a plane, using the bus – you definitely are.

]]> Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:01:15 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65324#post65324 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65324#post65324

If you drink coffee, there's a good chance you're a party to opression. If you use oil – by eating, driving a car, taking a plane, using the bus – you definitely are.

Tsk, we source our gasoline directly from a co-operative in Venezuela.

(But seriously, would fair trade oil?

If a woman uses sexual fantasy to become aroused and then has sex with her partner, do you view that the same way, as 'using his body'?

Oh say, I don't think this is a fair comparison, maybe it shows a fundamental difference between the sexes, but getting one's body?

They're defending their right to choose.

I note that for different celebrations, such as those things women do before they get married,( some hen thing goin' on there:) Show Boys is very popular. I am not keen on the idea myself and twice now have declined, because, it's not my?

Oh say, I don't think this is a fair comparison, maybe it shows a fundamental difference between the sexes, but getting one's body "used" is the prime objective of many young (and possibly old) men.

Did you mean, Young mens bodies being used by old men?

Did you mean, Young mens bodies being used by old men?

Well I was responding specifically to the suggestion that a woman might get fired up on fantasy & "use" a man's body. I mean, that would have been a dream friday night when I was in my 20s.

i ended reading a lot last night of the experiences of women in the porn industry. i accept they aren't universal, but i feel totally comfortable making judgements?

of course many women may freely choose to be involved in this industry and genuinely enjoy it. but what about that seemingly large number of women who don't, the ones who are abused?

What Ren does for them is work for SWOP, which involves getting help for sex workers who?

I mean, that would have been a dream friday night when I was in my 20s.

..and for many others too. And then in their 30s, 40s etc

And I admire their stamina.

'to mind... to my mind'? I am also rendered completely incoherent by this subject, apparently :)

I keep having stuff to say but no time to sit down and get right ...

Tomorrow, maybe.

Am I the only person horribly conflicted and (almost) thoroughly depressed by this topic?

In that you've finally found yourself discussing porn on an online forum? Yeah. Me too.

Heh – I 'm expecting Lisa Lewis to turn up any moment! (Um. here, not where I actually am at present.?

In that you've finally found yourself discussing porn on an online forum? Yeah. Me too.

Come to the Dark Side, Andrew, we have porn and cookies.

I don't know what I think.

There are areas around this where I am just hugely conflicted. I'm more interested in people who find?

but it's still consensual sex

no emma, it isn't always. some of the links i've provided show that. the linda lovelace example was one where she was forced to pretend it was consensual and she was enjoying it, and wasn't free to say anything different until quite some years later.?

In that you've finally found yourself discussing porn on an online forum? Yeah. Me too.

Yeah, that too!

Oh, fuck it. Some anecdotal notes about pole-dancing: I have been to female-stripping clubs in the southern USA – not the 'postmodern, ironic, sex-positive hipster' kind, but the 'working-class married dudes who?

There's an uncomfortable fact that some women really enjoy rough sex or 'degrading' sex, but it's still consensual sex.

I meant, in their own lives. Y'know, ordinary women. So do some men, and I mean being on the receiving end. The BDSM community just doesn't?

Am I the only person horribly conflicted and (almost) thoroughly depressed by this topic?

I've now written a post on the topic three times and deleted it because it didn't say what I wanted to say. I get tangled up in the 'yes, but no, wrong here but right here'?

a possibly unrelated point is that the porn industry depends on the notion that the women are behaving consensually and are enjoying what is done to them. when their income depends on looking and acting like they're enjoying it...

Tangentially, it is very clear in quite a lot of mainstream?

Tangentially, it is very clear in quite a lot of mainstream porn that the women are faking their orgasms. That also weirds me out.

Oddly, I watched the trailer for Erika Lust's Barcelona Sex Project a couple of days ago, and it made me feel very weird, because it's clear?

I've now written a post on the topic three times and deleted it because it didn't say what I wanted to say. I get tangled up in the 'yes, but no, wrong here but right here' and end up with four paragraphs that don't end up saying anything useful.

You?

Think of the exaggerated acting in the silent movie era. Hard as it is to figure, that must have been seen to convey actual human emotion.

I think you're not giving silent film enough props, Giovanni! There is some wonderfully subtle acting in silent movies, and it runs the gamut?

I think you're not giving silent film enough props, Giovanni! There is some wonderfully subtle acting in silent movies, and it runs the gamut of human emotions and artistic endeavour...

Heh. I considered commenting on this – I have long thought that people's perception of silent movies stems from the?

Catch something like Broken Blossoms, in a good print, at the right speed & with live music, and prepared to be amazed at how sophisticated cinema was in 1919.

I defy anybody, and I mean anybody, to watch Broken Blossom and not laugh at the acting. Lillian Gish has a couple?

I defy anybody, and I mean anybody, to watch Broken Blossom and not laugh at the acting

I took my girlfriend at the time, who'd never seen a real silent movie, to a screening in the 90s. She cried. Given that she's Chinese I thought she'd baulk at the casting?

I defy anybody, and I mean anybody, to watch Broken Blossom and not laugh at the acting.

Erm... I think I might have cried in Broken Blossoms. I am a dork. :)

No really, I'll get back to the pron now!

But I also don't see evidence?

No really, I'll get back to the pron now!

Ha, I love the fact that this may be the first time in history a thread has gone off-topic and STOPPED talking about porn.

I saw Metropolis with live piano in the Arts Centre back in the early nineties and it?

Erm... I think I might have cried in Broken Blossoms. I am a dork. :)

It's a gem of a film, no question. But it's a testament to our ability to suspend disbelief that we don't fall over backwards whenever Battling Burrows darts one of his brutish glances, is all?

But I also don't see evidence of a clear causal relationship between the apparent correlation between the simultaneous rise in pornography (or accessibility of pornography) and decrease in violence against women.

Dude, I'm hoping you're agreeing with me, because twice now I've said it's not causal at all, and I?

There are some very odd scenes in that movie.

And there are soon to be more – scenes lost for 80 years were recently found in Argentina.

(I actually squealed out loud like a little girl when I read that article last month.)

Sorry, sorry, back to the pr0n!

I grew up in a violence free, rugby-centred household, and that I continue to enjoy watching rugby on TV too.

Hmmm, has this thread morphed a little bit to where 'rugby' has become a comforting code word for some other kinds of activity that may or may not have been?

(I actually squealed out loud like a little girl when I read that article last month.)

I have to actually LOL. I just squealed like a little girl as I read it just then.

Peter... funny!!!. But just in case there's any mis-conceptions about the kind of dubious up-bringing I might have had, I meant rugby as just plain old rugby: no subtext intended.

When it comes to free consent, you need to distinguish between formal freedom, and substantive freedom.?

Oh, and if I did watch 'rugby' I would most likely prefer a men vs. women game to the men on men stuff.

OMG, I must totally tell you guys about when I was in IT support for the film censors (Jane Wrightson's watch). You wouldn't believe the stuff they'd?

Um. I can provide a link to that trailer, but I feel weird about doing so. It IS porn, but it also clearly demonstrates the difference between 'mainstream' chicka-wah-wah porn and modern femme/indie/goth/punk porn.

I got an angry, abusive email (to which I replied constructively) this week from a reader?

I read several US-based feminist sites, and I see a lot of women of different 'brands' bitching and sniping at each other.

As an antidote to that, here's Deborah and Ren in the same carnival.

And it has Whedonness as well. I knew this was?

One question, though Emma: on video, is what women want really a chick-flick with penetration? Just asking.

What women want? What women want? What's next on my list of things to answer, 'is there a god'?

Pron for women, that's made by women and intended for female consumption, covers a?

What women want? What women want? What's next on my list of things to answer, 'is there a god'?

I was enquiring after your comment upthread:

As more women become porn consumers, more people like Candida Royale and Erika Lust are able to make their brand of 'woman friendly' pron,?

But now I realise you put 'woman friendly' in quotes. Which is different ...

I did indeed. Aren't I sneaky. But yeah, I suspect that 'woman friendly' porn appeals to a hell of a lot of men. Ms Naughty has a whole bunch of posts where she talks about the?

I wondered why some of the the university educated daughters of friends were teaching pole dancing and/or having big fancy weddings and all the?

OMG, I must totally tell you guys about when I was in IT support for the film censors (Jane Wrightson's watch). You wouldn't believe the stuff they'd have playing in the background on their TVs while someone was trying to explain the architecture of their new system.

Andrew, do the?

They use their sexuality as a commodity, and keep their power.

This reminded me that some years ago, I modelled for life drawing classes. As an artist myself, who had drawn plenty of naked bods, i thought it would be interesting to experience being looked at and drawn. And it?

Also, there was an Australian study last year that concluded that while men went to a (perhaps) surprising extent for porn featuring natural women with bumps and flaws, women who looked at porn went for the airbrushed glossy idealised style. I thought that was interesting.

There's definitely some interesting aspects?

I can appreciate that it is possible for women to use their sexuality in an empowering way.

Me too. But isn't it implicit that someone else (for argument's sake, a man) in turn becomes a victim of that power? And that, because of the flaws in the underlying narrative, nothing?

But isn't it implicit that someone else (for argument's sake, a man) in turn becomes a victim of that power?

Oh, that's kind of interesting: is power in a sexual context a zero sum game? I'll be mulling that.

It was great until one day a bloke joined the class?

I feel a bit guilty about constantly quoting her, it's just that these issues are obviously something she's thought about a lot over the years, and she has such a way with words.

And you don't have away with words:)

You wouldn't believe the stuff they'd have playing in the background on their TVs while someone was trying to explain the architecture of their new system.

I was once a hair's breadth from being employed there. The last few candidates did a trial viewing of some "typical" material and we?

I got cocky

Oops.

I was to shy to do the modeling, but I've done lots of life drawing. I don't understand the getting aroused about it.

You very quickly get past the fact you're looking at what, on another day in a different context, might be eminently desirable! I know, it's like the?

Oh, that's kind of interesting: is power in a sexual context a zero sum game? I'll be mulling that.

That is really interesting: in saying that women can have power sexually, are we buying into a stereotype of men being led by their dicks? (The way I phrased that is?

How about 3D life sketching. Now thats awkward, we walk around a nude model with slabs of clay. I found it particularly uncomfortable doing the genitals. Holy mother of God, I'v just realized that I'm into producing pron, BC style.

They make pr0n in British Columbia? I always believed?

After Kerry's story I remembered for the first time in ages having regular conversations with the resident live model at Elam while we both waited for a bus back into?

There's definitely some interesting aspects in how women's appearances are primarily policed by other women; most of the time, when I make an effort to dress up, I'm not doing it for men.

Yup – if I put on a dress and heels and lippy I'm doing it for the?

Whereas seeing other men's faces all screwed-up and kumfasa doesn't really do it for het men ...

The DomPost goes for the classy – check out how they cropped the picture of Radcliffe in Equus on their homepage today (scroll down to entertainment news), just above his titular protestation "I'm?

And I hate to be the guy who tells others posters what to do,

I would hate to be that guy too, speshly on this thread, I value my cojones....;-)
But seriously. I consider for sexually explicit material to have it's desired result, arousal, it cannot be "acting" (unless it?

It has to be believable, you have to be able to relate to the subject. With that in mind, I find any violence in the material to have a negative affect. I guess I must be the "caring sharing" type.

Sure. For some people, their sexuality responds well to role-play,?

I think this stereotype is particularly damaging for young men and women who are just starting to figure out the whole sex thang. I remember freaking and being sure there was something desperately wrong with me?

Sorry, it just struck me.

I remember freaking and being sure there was something desperately wrong with me the first time I tangled with a bloke with a lower libido (or even just?

Hey Is, how glad do you think I am right now that my mum doesn't read here?

I'm fairly sure I've suggested my parents have a look here sometime – hoping I don't live to regret that.

Hey Is, how glad do you think I am right now that my mum doesn't read here?

I'm fairly sure I've suggested my parents have a look here sometime – hoping I don't live to regret that.

Nah, I think this place is a healthy environment for anyone to pop?

Nah, I think this place is a healthy environment for anyone to pop in. It's like a comfortable lounge, all warm and....wait, thats here!
As you were:-)

You mean the "adult thing",

How would people here respond were their daughter, mother, sister or wife to announce they were going to pursue a career in the sex industry?

Since you asked, Grant (and assuming you're really interested in the answer) I'm not the designated patriarch in my family, so let's assume my mother?

I disagree (naturally :). I would do everything in my power to make sure she did not go through with her plan and I would cut her off if she did.

Anybody else?

I would cut her off if she did.

God god.

I disagree (naturally :). I would do everything in my power to make sure she did not go through with her plan and I would cut her off if she did.

But surely in your case that's a reason for your daughter to become a prostitute?

C'mon Grant, you're really?

Also, I now realise that Emma and Hadyn didn't get moderator privileges, which is a bit of an oversight. I'll have that fixed.

but let's not let this thread be hijacked by Grant's bullshit, okay? Let him troll anywhere on PA but here, it would be a real shame. So not taking the bait, please.

Mr Ranapia, you'll notice that many of us had agreed informally to Giovanni's suggestion, so please don't come?

What about all the investment vehicles eg.Blue Chip?

You can certainly screw a much greater number of people that way, it would appear, yes.

"You're my child, and I love you ESPECIALLY when I vehemently disapprove of your choises. And if things turn to shit, you know where I am and, no matter how pissed off you make me, my door's always open."

This is a wonderful response and I'd like to think I'd?

"Think of England," she replied helpfully.

This is a wonderful response and I'd like to think I'd say something very similar were it my child.

Yes, imagine a world without unconditional love as the alternative. Shudder.

Yes, imagine a world without unconditional love as the alternative. Shudder.

And hmmm... isn't that the world in which the vast majority of sex workers (male, female, adult, child) find themselves? I mean, if we define unconditional love as "I will feed and house you if you find yourself short?

NSFW

at the TOP of your post.

I know I should have remembered the FLA but I forgot

abbreviations NSFW, has an interesting ambiguity.

Good grief. What could you possibly describe as being 'not safe for women'? I've never seen it used that way, but then, well, I wouldn't.

I really really wish you had put a definition of

NSFW

at the TOP of your post.

Sorry. Sometimes?

Good grief. What could you possibly describe as being 'not safe for women'? I've never seen it used that way, but then, well, I wouldn't.

Not suitable. And buggered If I know ether.

]]> Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:40:53 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65748#post65748 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65748#post65748 Ok late to this and really glad I found it (even if I did get a fright when I stupidly autoclicked a link :). My bad not yours Emma :).

This is a great discussion and there isn't much that hasn't been said and very well said.

For me porn?

]]> Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:55:12 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65755#post65755 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65755#post65755 I've struggled amidst work over the weekend to find a story that would add something here, and I haven't. Here are some broader thoughts instead. Sex work is not something I know much about, so I'll leave that for others.

We still live with the traces of a time when?

]]> Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:11:53 +1200 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65769#post65769 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-they-have-the-best-rides/?p=65769#post65769

Do any of you watch Coro St?

I never miss it. I also have a passionate defence of it prepared for any naysayers. :)

Poor Leanne. She should have been honest about her line of work to begin with... she would have had the ovarian fortitude to carry it off.

What I've taken out?

It's also nice to see that people can see that I'm NOT saying 'PRON IS GRATE?

Poor Leanne. She should have been honest about her line of work to begin with... she would have had the ovarian fortitude to carry it off.

But if she had been truthful, the gorgeous Liam wouldn't have fallen for her!

It gave Janice a chance to take the moral high?

FWIW, I think that Jolisa's comment at the top of page 2 articulates exceptionally well what I would say if I tried to post anything of substance on this topic. And since I am not really up to that, here is?

The debates over Madonna and girl power come to mind. Madonna (and a few other women in?

But if she had been truthful, the gorgeous Liam wouldn't have fallen for her!

Liam, Schmiam! I've read ahead and I know who *he* ends up with!

Someone at work had the temerity to say that Coro St was low culture today.

Well. I don't have a problem with the?

I have in mind here a book written by an Aussie woman, which was talked about on nine-to-noon recently.

the author is maggie hamilton, the book is "what's happening to our girls". it was based on her talking to girls around australia as well as teachers, counsellors etc. the findings?

In that, breaking naturally independent people down, turning them into obedient workers and blind consumers is largely the point of the modern structure. It's interesting to look at?

breaking naturally independent people down, turning them into obedient workers and blind consumers is largely the point of the modern structure.

I reckon. Saddling young ones with massive student loans so they have to get a flash well-paid job(s) and partnering up, so they have the requisite double income to?