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Public Address
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1658
Hard News: Spectacular but useless
The Herald has had two bites at the new New Zealand Drug Harm Index developed by Berl for the New Zealand Police.
Ross Bell
From: Wellington, NZ
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 49
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
And we're left with an index that is spectacular but fairly useless in policy terms.
Would I be far too cynical in suggesting that there's an event that has to happen on one Saturday before the middle of November that might be marginally more pertinent here? And God only knows that the Police need some positive PR...
Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1181
Those headlines 'police raid discovers $N million worth of drugs' have always seemed bogus to me - I mean is there a part of StatisticsNZ that does a monthly street price survey? - I kind of imagine a Beavis&Butthead "nyuck nycuk nycuk - I sold that guy a tinny of oregano for $500, he was so obviously a nark man"
Michael Hogan
From: Waiheke Island
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 25
Yes, pointless waffle really in terms of any real social benefit. The police are definitely in need of positive PR, and this will provide stats to that effect that can be used to buy some more votes.
Any drug harm index that does not include alcohol and tobacco is useless, but does not serve the purpose here, and would not be allowed by respective lobby groups. $12K worth of harm per kg of cannabis? Gimme a break..
The more money they spend, the more they save us...
From ourselves!
If that isn't politically driven socialist crap nothing is.
Mikaere Curtis
From: Tamaki Makaurau
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 297
If that isn't politically driven socialist crap nothing is.
I don't think socialists have a monopoly on this kind of authoritarianism, just look at the US War on Drugs.
I am really disappointed with the police. Given the stats that they themselves declare - circa 80% of violent crime is related to alcohol - I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.
Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1181
In fact I think that alcohol and tobacco being ignored when considering drug harm probably has more to do with capitalism than socialism
horse
From: Palmerston North
Since: Feb 2007
Posts: 21
On a quick browse through the report, it seems pretty cynical. For example, "stimulants" includes Methamphetamine AND Ecstasy, and nowhere are harm figures broken down between the two.
Tom Semmens
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1094
I noticed on the news the other night that the police allowed TVNZ journalists "behind the scenes" on one of their murder investigations, with a view of the operations room and the timeline storyboard, etc etc. Definetely part of a PR campaign by the police. And not before time in my view. Constant attacks on the credibility of the police have consequences, not the least of which is having to listen to the hot headed and foolish comments of Peter Lowe in the media. His comments came perilously close to incitement in my view. I notice Mr. Lowe appears to be being primed and fired by the Sensible Sentencing Trust, whose recent antics seem to veering more and more to encouraging an extra-judicial lynch mob mentality.
Zippy Gonzales
From: Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 163
And on the Mazengarb Delinquency Harm Index all those years ago, homosexuality was deemed the most damaging harm, 8 shillings more harmful per kilo than milkbars.
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9068
Moderator
I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.
I think that is the correct conclusion, unfortunately.
Matthew Poole
From: The pit from whence crawled Rodney Hide
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 1572
homosexuality was deemed the most damaging harm, 8 shillings more harmful per kilo than milkbars.
What's that converted into grams of well-aged Stilton?
Matthew Poole
From: The pit from whence crawled Rodney Hide
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 1572
includes Methamphetamine AND Ecstasy, and nowhere are harm figures broken down between the two.
I haven't read the Herald yet (it's my lunchtime reading material), but the headline and opening line on the website caught my eye. Apparently E is a hard-core drug, and was listed alongside a bunch of class A narcotics. The only class B in the list, in fact. Obviously it's just under-classified.
From all the reading I've done about E, the only harm I've been able to find is in chronic users where it can totally fuck with one's serotonin production/uptake systems. That's it. Oh, and the idiots who drown themselves but that's not directly E's fault.
dc_red
From: City of Champions, Canada
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 599
It's a shame that they didn't run a parallel headline about Transmission Gully. Along the lines of:
"Road no one will be able to afford to use cost NZ society $1.025 billion, study shows"
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
I am really disappointed with the police. Given the stats that they themselves declare - circa 80% of violent crime is related to alcohol - I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.
Mikaere: Rightly or wrongly (possibly the latter, bugger), I'll err very slightly on the side of generosity and say I don't think it's quite that simple. But I sure as hell do think this has the awful whiff of nudging your methodology towards a desired outcome.
OTOH, after the taser trail report debacle I'd seriously propose an independent Keith Nig-style bullshit detector be seconded to the Commissioner's Office, with absolute veto powers over every scrap of paper that goes out on Police letterhead with a statistic in it. There's a line between 'open to debate' and 'utter, dishonest bullshit', and the Police can't afford to be on the wrong side of it when making allegedly serious public policy arguments or effectively lobbying for legislation.
dc_red
From: City of Champions, Canada
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 599
There's a line between 'open to debate' and 'utter, dishonest bullshit', and the Police can't afford to be on the wrong side of it when making allegedly serious public policy arguments or effectively lobbying for legislation.
Surely though that's their modus operandi?
Matthew Poole
From: The pit from whence crawled Rodney Hide
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 1572
after the taser trail report debacle
Oh, oh, scandal? Didn't hear about that one. Or are you just talking about how it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they would be recommended, and the trial was mostly a façade?
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9068
Moderator
__after the taser trail report debacle__
Oh, oh, scandal? Didn't hear about that one. Or are you just talking about how it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they would be recommended, and the trial was mostly a façade?
The Ombudsman gave the police a serious lashing for cherry-picking trial data and "sanitising" their final report:
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/06/sanitised.html
Quite dishonest, actually.
Steve Barnes
From: The City of Ales
Since: Dec 2006
Posts: 1975
The fact that this report was put together by "Economists" rang alarm bells with me. The police can now say "see, we are not wasting money on chasing pot heads, we are saving you money"
That the report does not include tobacco and alcohol says to me that, maybe, the report contained these figures originally but when you looked at the figures the police could only say "See, we are wasting your money chasing pot heads, we have far bigger problems to deal with"
Complete waste of time and money. You may as well ask "How much do economists cost the country?"
Rich of Observationz
From: Back in Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2009
I haven't fisked the whole thing yet, but if you take the costs of prohibition out of their numbers, they reduce hugely. If you add in revenue loss from not taxing currently illegal drugs (something that was advocated by the party pill industry) then it's conceivable that legalisation would make recreational drug use a net fiscal positive.
I'd also point out that it's by no means certain that the problems of those presenting medically or being convicted as a "result" of drug use are actually wholly or partly due to drug use. People with existing psychiatric issues are more likely to have drug problems, and defending counsel will always produce any mitigation they can.
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9068
Moderator
That the report does not include tobacco and alcohol says to me that, maybe, the report contained these figures originally but when you looked at the figures the police could only say "See, we are wasting your money chasing pot heads, we have far bigger problems to deal with"
When you look at the figures in the index for drug-related crime, without alcohol, they actually seem quite low (although, comfortingly, 100% of drug offences were drug-related).
Including alcohol would have created just the effect you suggest.
Matthew Poole
From: The pit from whence crawled Rodney Hide
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 1572
I do wonder what would happen if pot were, at the least, decriminalised and thus its use became a lot more prevalent. It's demonstrated to be physically more harmful than tobacco, but in part that harm is minimised because of its legal status and subsequent lowered consumption.
As I said in another thread, sure tobacco costs waaaaaay more than pot in terms of cancers and other illnesses, but that's because pot isn't used as widely. Remove the legal sanctions on its consumption, and watch the related harm figures soar.
Of course, if that were grounds for banning things then tobacco would be long gone!
Paul Litterick
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 920
I think we should see the drafts of the report. I think we should be making Freedom of Information requests.
Simon Pound
From: MFAK
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 18
This was my favourite bit of the Herald story:
"* The most damaging drug per kilogram was LSD, which cost more than $1.05 billion a kg"
A kilogram of LSD would be pretty damaging, yes.
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9068
Moderator
I haven't fisked the whole thing yet, but if you take the costs of prohibition out of their numbers, they reduce hugely.
They just about damn well disappear if you remove the rather dubious "harm" of "productive resources diverted due to drug production", which is the largest cost quoted in the index.
Rogan Polkinghorne
From: A-town
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 95
Haha that's what I was thinking Simon. Statistic of the day really.
Damaging...probably.
Interesting...definately!
MikeE
From: Kingsland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 101
Heres what a real economist says about drugs:
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/prohibition_and_drugs.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/war_we_are_losing.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/stop_taxing_non.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/an_open_letter_to_bill_bennett.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/bennett_fears_.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/friedm1.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/socialist.htm
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9068
Moderator
A kilogram of LSD would be pretty damaging, yes.
The Herald report -- surprise! -- left off half the sentence from the report. The full quote is:
LSD is the most damaging drug per kilogram, at $1.05 billion per kilogram, but due to the small amount used it causes little harm (0.5 percent of total harm, or $265 per user).
Do the responsible thing, kids: choose LSD.
James Green
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 579
I mean is there a part of StatisticsNZ that does a monthly street price survey?
It's only done annually, and not by StatisticsNZ. The report covers, pricing, availability, number of current users etc.
James Green
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 579
This graph is interesting, based on a paper in the Lancet. The colours represent suggested drug classes based on scientific merit, as outlined in this report to the house of commons (p.178).
Rich of Observationz
From: Back in Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2009
I reckon that by using their methodology, you could make a good case for banning rugby. Add up all the money put into paying players, coaches, use of valuable land and resources, rugby related crime, rugby injuries and deaths. Take off a bit for increased fitness (but add on for people who eat like athletes when they're not).
Billions, I reckon.
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