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Public Address
Since: Nov 2006
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Hard News: Spectacular but useless

The Herald has had two bites at the new New Zealand Drug Harm Index developed by Berl for the New Zealand Police.

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Ross Bell
From: Wellington, NZ
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 17

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Yep, and using seizure data is always problematic

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Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 4375

And we're left with an index that is spectacular but fairly useless in policy terms.

Would I be far too cynical in suggesting that there's an event that has to happen on one Saturday before the middle of November that might be marginally more pertinent here? And God only knows that the Police need some positive PR...

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Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 599

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Those headlines 'police raid discovers $N million worth of drugs' have always seemed bogus to me - I mean is there a part of StatisticsNZ that does a monthly street price survey? - I kind of imagine a Beavis&Butthead "nyuck nycuk nycuk - I sold that guy a tinny of oregano for $500, he was so obviously a nark man"

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Michael Hogan
From: Waiheke Island
Since: Nov 2006
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Yes, pointless waffle really in terms of any real social benefit. The police are definitely in need of positive PR, and this will provide stats to that effect that can be used to buy some more votes.

Any drug harm index that does not include alcohol and tobacco is useless, but does not serve the purpose here, and would not be allowed by respective lobby groups. $12K worth of harm per kg of cannabis? Gimme a break..

The more money they spend, the more they save us...
From ourselves!

If that isn't politically driven socialist crap nothing is.

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Mikaere Curtis
From: Tamaki Makaurau
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 173

If that isn't politically driven socialist crap nothing is.

I don't think socialists have a monopoly on this kind of authoritarianism, just look at the US War on Drugs.

I am really disappointed with the police. Given the stats that they themselves declare - circa 80% of violent crime is related to alcohol - I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.

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Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
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In fact I think that alcohol and tobacco being ignored when considering drug harm probably has more to do with capitalism than socialism

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horse
From: Palmerston North
Since: Feb 2007
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On a quick browse through the report, it seems pretty cynical. For example, "stimulants" includes Methamphetamine AND Ecstasy, and nowhere are harm figures broken down between the two.

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Tom Semmens
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 546

I noticed on the news the other night that the police allowed TVNZ journalists "behind the scenes" on one of their murder investigations, with a view of the operations room and the timeline storyboard, etc etc. Definetely part of a PR campaign by the police. And not before time in my view. Constant attacks on the credibility of the police have consequences, not the least of which is having to listen to the hot headed and foolish comments of Peter Lowe in the media. His comments came perilously close to incitement in my view. I notice Mr. Lowe appears to be being primed and fired by the Sensible Sentencing Trust, whose recent antics seem to veering more and more to encouraging an extra-judicial lynch mob mentality.

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Zippy Gonzales
From: Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
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And on the Mazengarb Delinquency Harm Index all those years ago, homosexuality was deemed the most damaging harm, 8 shillings more harmful per kilo than milkbars.

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Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
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I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.

I think that is the correct conclusion, unfortunately.

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Matthew Poole
From: Auckland
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 588

homosexuality was deemed the most damaging harm, 8 shillings more harmful per kilo than milkbars.

What's that converted into grams of well-aged Stilton?

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Matthew Poole
From: Auckland
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 588

includes Methamphetamine AND Ecstasy, and nowhere are harm figures broken down between the two.

I haven't read the Herald yet (it's my lunchtime reading material), but the headline and opening line on the website caught my eye. Apparently E is a hard-core drug, and was listed alongside a bunch of class A narcotics. The only class B in the list, in fact. Obviously it's just under-classified.

From all the reading I've done about E, the only harm I've been able to find is in chronic users where it can totally fuck with one's serotonin production/uptake systems. That's it. Oh, and the idiots who drown themselves but that's not directly E's fault.

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dc_red
From: Waitakere City
Since: Nov 2006
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It's a shame that they didn't run a parallel headline about Transmission Gully. Along the lines of:

"Road no one will be able to afford to use cost NZ society $1.025 billion, study shows"

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Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 4375

I am really disappointed with the police. Given the stats that they themselves declare - circa 80% of violent crime is related to alcohol - I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.

Mikaere: Rightly or wrongly (possibly the latter, bugger), I'll err very slightly on the side of generosity and say I don't think it's quite that simple. But I sure as hell do think this has the awful whiff of nudging your methodology towards a desired outcome.

OTOH, after the taser trail report debacle I'd seriously propose an independent Keith Nig-style bullshit detector be seconded to the Commissioner's Office, with absolute veto powers over every scrap of paper that goes out on Police letterhead with a statistic in it. There's a line between 'open to debate' and 'utter, dishonest bullshit', and the Police can't afford to be on the wrong side of it when making allegedly serious public policy arguments or effectively lobbying for legislation.

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dc_red
From: Waitakere City
Since: Nov 2006
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There's a line between 'open to debate' and 'utter, dishonest bullshit', and the Police can't afford to be on the wrong side of it when making allegedly serious public policy arguments or effectively lobbying for legislation.

Surely though that's their modus operandi?

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Matthew Poole
From: Auckland
Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 588

after the taser trail report debacle

Oh, oh, scandal? Didn't hear about that one. Or are you just talking about how it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they would be recommended, and the trial was mostly a façade?

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Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
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after the taser trail report debacle

Oh, oh, scandal? Didn't hear about that one. Or are you just talking about how it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they would be recommended, and the trial was mostly a façade?

The Ombudsman gave the police a serious lashing for cherry-picking trial data and "sanitising" their final report:

http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/06/sanitised.html

Quite dishonest, actually.

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Steve Barnes
From: A:\Kland\3Kings\My Office\My Documents\Random.thinx
Since: Dec 2006
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The fact that this report was put together by "Economists" rang alarm bells with me. The police can now say "see, we are not wasting money on chasing pot heads, we are saving you money"
That the report does not include tobacco and alcohol says to me that, maybe, the report contained these figures originally but when you looked at the figures the police could only say "See, we are wasting your money chasing pot heads, we have far bigger problems to deal with"
Complete waste of time and money. You may as well ask "How much do economists cost the country?"

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Rich of Observationz
From: Beautiful Downtown Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
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I haven't fisked the whole thing yet, but if you take the costs of prohibition out of their numbers, they reduce hugely. If you add in revenue loss from not taxing currently illegal drugs (something that was advocated by the party pill industry) then it's conceivable that legalisation would make recreational drug use a net fiscal positive.

I'd also point out that it's by no means certain that the problems of those presenting medically or being convicted as a "result" of drug use are actually wholly or partly due to drug use. People with existing psychiatric issues are more likely to have drug problems, and defending counsel will always produce any mitigation they can.

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Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
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That the report does not include tobacco and alcohol says to me that, maybe, the report contained these figures originally but when you looked at the figures the police could only say "See, we are wasting your money chasing pot heads, we have far bigger problems to deal with"

When you look at the figures in the index for drug-related crime, without alcohol, they actually seem quite low (although, comfortingly, 100% of drug offences were drug-related).

Including alcohol would have created just the effect you suggest.

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