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Posted at 11:51AM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

But I do think that journalists can become institutionalised in a number of ways.

When I worked for Wellington Newspapers people used to speak approvingly of a since-departed political reporter who'd have himself reassigned to the crime rounds every year or two, to prevent exactly that.

I certainly know that from my interaction with the journos the polticial gallery were the only ones it would be fair to describe as up their own arseholes. Too much time spent segregated from their peers, and too great a sense of self-importance, methings..

Posted at 12:04PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

People might want to look at Vernon Small's end of the discussion as well. Unfortunately, it smacks of the same old-media snobbery that Clifton's piece does. There seems to be an inability to distinguish between the medium and the messenger - to realise that blogging is just a platform, like TV or newspapers, and what matters is what you do with it. Most bloggers aren't journalists (I'm not, most of the time; I just dabble) - but there's no law of nature saying they can't be. Or else Small and Espiner and garner and all those other blogging journalists would be stripped of their Secret Journalist Club membership cards for having been forced online by their bosses.

And as for blogs being "confusing for the voter", I think that gives us a relevance we don't deserve. Readership is tiny compared to the electorate. Blogs are mostly read by political insiders, who are generally looking for material they expect to agree with - not ordinary voters. The only way these people are going to be confused are if I come out supporting torturing the poor so their money can be given to the rich, while DPF backs a more progressive tax scale to pay for a universal basic income.

Posted at 12:05PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Oh, and Nicky Hager has a parallel media? Where?

Posted at 12:08PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

In such circumstances, I think it's useful to have a third voice watching the watchers and, where appropriate, nerding it up with facts and figures

Absolutely - and that statement has echoes of this piece I read yesterday in the NYTimes Is John Stewart the Most Trusted Man in America?

Posted at 12:12PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Your presence bears out something I learned very early on about the internet: it provides access to many people who have the attributes for journalism -- a sharp mind and a good prose style -- but are not in fact journalists.

If journalism is about providing objective information about facts or events then I have to say I haven't seen a whole lot of it about online.

On the other hand, if you look on journalism as a demented shouting match in which you scream insults about your political enemies while indulging in self-rationalising delusions about those on your own ideological team then yeah, the internet has plenty of budding journalists.

Posted at 12:13PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

There seems to be an inability to distinguish between the medium and the messenger - to realise that blogging is just a platform, like TV or newspapers, and what matters is what you do with it.

I still remember fondly Karl du Fresne's column in the mid-90s, in which he declared that he didn't trust the internet. I pointed out at the time that was like saying you didn't trust the telephone.

Posted at 12:15PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Part of the problem might be the terms. If you talk about reportage - of primary sources and events and investigation and so on - and compare it to commentary you might get further. For instance, any idiot can do commentary and many do, whatever the medium.

Clifton seems taken aback by the idea of people having to evalute the credibility of an information source and their material.

Or maybe she has the idea blogs, being able to be read by anyone, are somehow implicitly claiming to be like newspapers.

Either way: Huh?

Posted at 12:17PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Actually.... as an "ordinary voter" with no particular allegiances, I'm going to say that despite not liking Clifton's "old media snobbery"... I do actually agree with part of her basic premise...

It sometimes is hard to tell which people have a line on the truth and which are just spinning a little and who's telling outright lies....

What she's possibly discounting is that us plebs are aware that those distinctions do exist... we are not oblivious that we are (possibly) being manipulated... but it can still be difficult to pigeon-hole any particular piece of info.... there are so many sources.... which to trust?

And, unfortunately for Clifton and her ilk.... I've seen enough wrong reporting in the MSM that they dont automatically get a pass mark either...

Posted at 12:21PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Very few bloggers do reportage. But then, neither does Jane Clifton. She's a commentator. Give her a website, and she'd be distinguishable from the rest of us only by her quality of writing and superficial focus. So I can see why she might feel her status was under threat...

Posted at 12:31PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

I still remember fondly Karl du Fresne's column in the mid-90s, in which he declared that he didn't trust the internet. I pointed out at the time that was like saying you didn't trust the telephone.

Or movable type. I don't trust or distrust carving knives, but when someone points one at my chest... well, Houston, we have a problem. :)

And since you brought up The Standard, Russell, I said on another thread that both The Standard and Kiwiblog have been deleted from my RSS reader until (at least) the election is over. There's not necessarily anything wrong with being "clatteringly partisan" -- otherwise, the websites of the The Daily Telegraph (London not the Sydney tabloid) and The Guardian wouldn't be daily reads. But there's a point where the signal to noise ratio becomes painfully low.

And am I the only person who finds, ironically enough, the partisan flame-baiting posts from Jordan on Just Left have dialled back considerably since he was selected as a candidate?

Posted at 12:32PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

"partisan flame-baiting" meaning "saying what you stand for"...

Posted at 12:36PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Thanks so much for letting us know that Denis Welch has a blog. Bookmarked immediately!

Posted at 12:37PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

"partisan flame-baiting" meaning "saying what you stand for"...

Oh, Idiot... could we cut the Sensing Murder bullshit for a moment? I mean the 'dirty Tories don't give a shit about the poor' / 'Liarbore dykeocracy' poo-flinging that does nothing except attract exactly the kind of response it's blatantly trolling for. And which, I suspect, Jordan very sensibly doesn't want getting read back to him at meet the candidate forums invoving actual voters.

Posted at 12:37PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

But I do think that journalists can become institutionalised in a number of ways. In political journalist that can manifest as a tendency to report the sizzle over the sausage, and to -- yes, I am looking at you Jane -- depict it all as a grand, jolly game.

Very interesting commentary, RB. I never saw political commentators as being institutionalised, but on reflection it is a pretty good description.

<Rant>They do have a tendency to report the sizzle over the sausage which I put that down to laziness and arrogance. Colin Espiner, and a few others, mused largely about the lunch, the size and unattentiveness of a recent ChCh audience of Cullen's. But they paid no courtesy to Cullen by reporting what he did actually say. To me this is rude and typically reflects the current state of the msm political commentariat in this country. And, of course, when you tackle these commentators over such issues, well..., their humility is hardly apparent. Then they have the audacity to go on about politicians being arrogant and not being in touch with the ordinary voter! </Rant>

Thank God we have people like yourself, and this blog, to try and keep these people honest.

Posted at 12:39PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

An addition to the "age of Scoop" point. Over the same period, public information, rather than political spin, has also become far more accessible. And not only accessible, but able to be directly linked to via the magic of HTTP.

Asymmetrical Warfare: Having a biffo with the mainstream media, Keith Ng's classic for the Aotearoa Ethnic Journal, goes most usefully into that and other aspects of the topic.

Posted at 12:41PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

the impending demise of the Levin Chronicle, the award-winning local daily that APN is to turn into just another bi-weekly freesheet.

What ??!! The Chronicle was the first paper I ever worked on, after leaving Welly journo school in late '95.

I actually asked in my interview with then-editor David Saunders (one of at least four people in the country by that name, incidentally) what the future of the paper was and he told me "I can see it lasting for at least another 20 years".

It's pretty easy to take the psis out of the smaller provincial dailies, but they pretty much run on the smell of an oily rag.

They also provide a place for good journalists to kick-off their careers; RNZ Nat's Danya Levy and Elizabeth Banas were there when I was there, for example. Plenty of others went on to bigger and better medja jobs from The Chronicle as well.

Levin was a crap-heap to live in, but The Chronicle was a good place to work at, I learnt a lot in my two years there. About a year into it, the paper was given a big redesign and it looked heaps better.

I understand that in recent years it's exapnded from covering Horowhenua into Kapiti as well (correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe this proved to be uneconomic and gave the excuse to end its life as a daily?

Posted at 12:42PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

Extremely well put, Russell. Over the past decade or two, I have been involved with five different national surveys of New Zealand journalists (for the NZJTO and other folk) and resistance of journalists to any interrogation of their profession by 'outsiders' has always been an issue--especially for long-serving journalists. What is happening now is that the club is no longer exclusive, and interlopers are sneaking in the back door, to drink at the bar (so to speak).
I think this is why journalism training maintains several barriers, such as a required entry level of shorthand (do we always need it, in these days of more accurate digital recorders?).

But why Joanne Black on Media 7? She already has ample (too much?) access to the public discourse, and really has nothing much to say (and if she mentions her bloody house renovations again....!!!)

Posted at 12:46PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

BTW, Idiot, I know Jordan and he's a really smart, reasonable guy -- if tragically misguided on the political front. :)

While I do think the likes of Redbaiter and Tom Semmens really do "believe" the poo they fling around teh interwebz with gay abandon (which just makes them sincere loons, IMO), I actually know Jordan's capable of better. I certainly don't think he's going to be running around Hunua hosing down the voters with rhetorical silage.

Posted at 12:51PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

It's pretty easy to take the psis out of the smaller provincial dailies, but they pretty much run on the smell of an oily rag.

They also provide a place for good journalists to kick-off their careers;

Quite. There's something you get from a small publication with a strong editorial culture that you don't get anywhere else.

The Chronicle was judged last year as Pacific Area Newspaper of the Year (PANPA) and this year it has been nominated as the best performing newspaper in the APN stable. It's not losing money.

But -- and there's a question here about the local council's actions in where it has decided to spend its advertising budget -- APN has decided it will not be viable in its current form. Interesting story.

Posted at 12:53PM on 19 Aug 08. Permalink.

And just one question: Any media historians who can point readers to much fretting over the threat to civilization posed by television, and before that radio, and before that... well, technological and social advances (the high speed printing press and mass literacy) that created a market for the daily newspaper -- which naturally was going to be a hotbed of seditious radical nonsense being fed to the gullible proles.