Public Address | System (Home)

Posted at 9:20AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Put the stuff in Coca Cola. It's consumed in vast quantities. Young people seem to subsist on it.

Coca Cola? Wot, is this the 1950s, Gramps?

The beverages of choice I see young 'uns drinking around Wellington Station every morning are hot chocolate for the girls and cheap energy drinks for the boys.

Posted at 9:51AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

or why not just put in everything...
bread, coke, milk, chips, water supply!

Posted at 9:54AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

The only way this will work is if the nation consumes sufficient bread to compound its obesity problem.

Why have chosen to simply regurgitate a press release from the opponents of this, Mr. Slack?

The "eleven slice" number assumes that you eat nothing else but bread to get your dose of vitamin B9.

Practically every Western Country fortifies it bread in this way, including the home of freedom and the conspiracy theory the United States.

Posted at 10:05AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Treated bread for 4 million to perhaps prevent 3-4 spina-bifada events. (Great sympathy for the familes of course.) .
I bet that since Key over-ruled Pharmac regarding Herceptin, he would be quite happy to over-rule the"law"on folic acid to prevent a public reaction. Populist!

Posted at 10:08AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

"Prospective cohort and case-control studies suggest an association between low folate intake and increased risk of colo-rectal adenoma and cancer."
link

"In adult life folate deficiency has been known for decades to produce a characteristic form of anaemia ("megaloblastic"). More recently degrees of folate inadequacy, not severe enough to produce anaemia, have been found to be associated with high blood levels of the amino acid homocysteine. [...] High blood levels of homocysteine have been linked with the risk of arterial disease, dementia and Alzheimer's disease."
link

My question for the masses: How do you get folate in your diet normally?

Posted at 10:11AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

I'm disappointed. I thought that here at least I'd find a decent fisking of the whole debacle. This is no more sensible than the kerfuffle over the lightbulbs. They're carrying on over at Kiwiblog as if it's a conspiracy by female bureaucrats to give prostate cancer to men.

At least some links to the science would be good.

Posted at 10:13AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Dimpost rightly pointed out that the whole idea would seem a lot less threatening if we stopped referring to the chemical in question as 'folic acid', and started calling it by its 'other' name - Vitamin B9, instead.

'Cos vitamins are always good for you, right?

Posted at 10:13AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

How do you get folate in your diet normally?

lots of green veges

Posted at 10:16AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Apparently this was, until the Food Council hired Katherine Rich (presumably on the basis that an attractive Tory woman would be the acceptable face of allowing greater spina bifida for th convenience of their members) as their PR hack, a bi-partisan issue that National signed up to before the last election.

But like allowing fattty foods back into our schools, it is clear that if the choice is between astro-turf populism that feeds into pbase prejudice and the advice of experts and NGO's this government will pick the small minded and ignorant response everytime.

Anyway, once the Food Council (and the Green Party via the usual nonsensical utterances of their resident food nutjob Sue Kedgley) have seen of the conspiracy to mass poison us all with vitamin B9, I imagine they'll be able to deal with the REAL threat posed by the shadowy Illuminati - mass vaccinations.

Posted at 10:27AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Thanks for the links John - I was worried because my mum has recently been treated for colon cancer.

speaking of mass vaccinations...

The government recently announced they would fund the seasonal 'flu vaccine for all NZers now. I have already had it. I spoke to a nurse friend about vaccinating my daughters and she recommended that we do it. Her reasoning was that if someone had ordinary seasonal 'flu they were then more vulnerable to swine 'flu (catching it and severity of impact).

It would be good to get some other opinions on this.

Posted at 10:30AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Yay - acid in our coke. I'm in heaven. constantly. blissfully.now if we can just figure out a way to put mdma in our coffee i'm gonna be a supremely happy man.

Posted at 10:32AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/2579721/Free-flu-vaccinations

Posted at 10:35AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

I used to mis-hear it as 'frolic acid' but I presume that it is a naturally-occuring acid. We do get some unholy alliances around these issues. The anti-flouride mob are stirring again up this way.

Posted at 10:35AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

I'd like to hear what people think about the 'freedom of choice' argument.

I mean, I support vaccination programmes, and I supported the last Government's efforts to restrict unhealthy foods in schools... but compulsorily putting something in a staple like bread makes me go "hmmm".

Then again there's already iodine in salt, as David pointed out, and the sky hasn't fallen in. So I'm a bit confused. What are the limits of the 'freedom of choice' case?

Come on (folate proponents and opponents) - convince me.

Posted at 10:38AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

At least some links to the science would be good.

I've appended them to the post.

Posted at 10:39AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

I'm curious how many people up and arms about this happily buy vitamin-fortified cereals? And wasn't "and folic acid for reproduction" a selling point once upon a time?

Posted at 10:43AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Why have chosen to simply regurgitate a press release from the opponents of this, Mr. Slack?
The "eleven slice" number assumes that you eat nothing else but bread to get your dose of vitamin B9.

Fair enough, but it seems to me nonetheless that if you want to bring home something for dinner you should point your rifle directly at the rabbit.
Even if they have other sources, it sounds to me as though it's still likely that the women for whom it's intended will get insufficient by this means.

Posted at 10:48AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Congrats to the PR bod who came up with "eleven slices", now a compulsory part of the catechism, like plasma TVs in prison and hip-hop tours. Not ten. Not twelve. Too even, too round. Eleven it is, and ever shall be.

Thick slices? Thin slices? Baguette slices? Hamburger bun slices? Auntie's cucumber sandwich slices, with the crusts cut off? Who knows? Who cares? Reporters, repeat, repeat ...

Posted at 10:49AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

For the love of Mike, can someone fix the extra long links that are messing with the page width?

What are the limits of the 'freedom of choice' case?

The limits are that as the FSANZ points out, it hasn't really worked. People who need it (actually, the mothers of people who need it) don't know it could benefit them half the time because they're not expecting to be pregnant. And the kids, of course, have no choice either way. It's the same with kids drinking fluoridated water - their dental health is dependent on the choices of others.

The benefits are demonstrable, the risks negligible, as even Kate Wilkinson agrees.

What I'm most worried about is that all this scaremongering will put soon-to-be pregnant women off taking supplements because they might get cancer.

Posted at 10:51AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Tom, Katherine Rich has been the head of that organisation since shortly after she left politics. Is that really the best you've got?

Posted at 10:51AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Dr. Peter Gluckman is John Key's Chief Science Advisor, and his research is on

what gives us a healthy start to life: understanding how a baby’s environment between conception and birth determines its childhood development and life-long health - and the impact that this knowledge has for individuals and whole populations.

Just wondering if anybody in the media feels like getting his take on the matter. Perhaps he could "drop" some "science" on us "y'all".

Posted at 10:56AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

A policy version of direct rabbit-rifle pointing might be identifying all women aged, say, 15-45 and giving them each supplements in pill form for up to thirty years each. I think it's pretty easy to identify the cost and implementation issues associated with that.

I expect everyone seriously objecting to supplementation to hand over their supplies of Sultana Bran and Calci-Smart tout suite.

Posted at 10:57AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

The curious thing is, down the line, an artisan baker somewhere will advertise their bread as "no folic acid added" (analogy here - unpasteurised cheeses.)

Also, the thing about 11 slices - someone read Chip and Dave Heath's book "Made to Stick" on that one - , but if you're getting the equivalent of 7 slices then the added folate in 4 slices (or the amount an average woman would consume) might get you up to the recommended amount.

Although I have no idea what the difference would be on the hypothetical average woman/average gestation about getting the equivalent of 8 slices, 10 slices, or 12 slices of folic acid would be on your baby's spina bifida risk. I wonder if it's a tipping point scenario?

Posted at 10:57AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Science Media Centre: Latest evidence on folic acid and cancer
... no change in risk

Posted at 11:01AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Tom, Katherine Rich has been the head of that organisation since shortly after she left politics. Is that really the best you've got?

Well, I sure thought the crack about "the acceptable face of allowing greater spina bifida" was a particularly nasty and cheap attack of Helen Lovejoy-ism.

Posted at 11:01AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Put Marmite on the bread and get a double dose.
So does Marmite (or vegemite) cause prostate cancer too?

Posted at 11:08AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

All good, then, just so long as you eat eleven - count them, eleven slices - of bread each day. As we all do.

As people have pointed out, folate acid doesn't just come from bread. And I presume even if you don't eat the recommended amount, you still get some benefit.

That press release from the Coalition of Parents of Children with Spina Bifida seems to me tells a side to the story that should be getting a lot more coverage than some head baker.

I'd like to see a baker on the news saying "yes, I'd love to help find a way that I can improve the health of future children and prevent families from having to go through this." There must be some who feel that way about it surely?

Instead I got "some loaves will have to much, some loaves will have too little". Which seemed to me to be irrelevant given that people don't eat the same amount of bread each day anyway.

Posted at 11:09AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

I'm curious how many people up and arms about this happily buy vitamin-fortified cereals? And wasn't "and folic acid for reproduction" a selling point once upon a time?

That was the ad campaign for Complan maybe 15-20 years ago.

Given that a lot of "nanny-state" measures like eco-bulbs had connections with global treaties such as NZFSA & Kyoto, I'm not the only one to foresee a brewing shitfight between "free-choice" nationalism and "nanny-state" internationalism. Especially if NZ finds itself at the receiving end of America's Waxman-Markey Act.

Posted at 11:19AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

Even if they have other sources, it sounds to me as though it's still likely that the women for whom it's intended will get insufficient by this means.

So your logic is because we can't put as much in as we should we should put none in?

Or

Because we can't eliminate spina bifida babies and prevent abortions of spina bifida babies - let's instead have more.

Stupid analogy time - because some people don't wear seat belts we should repeal the seat belt law??

Thank you for putting the science links in but I fear stupidity has already won this fight.

Yes you can get B9 from veges but it is somewhat dependent on the soils the plants are grown in. Unfortunately NZ soils aren't great for promoting B9 accumulation.

It's worth noting Canada and the US fortify flour - which means all flour products get B9 supplementation. A lot of the flour in NZ is made elsewhere which makes B9 supplementation at this point more difficult.

Note this is a public health issue and an economic issue. Children with neural defects cost a fortune to help live reasonable lives. It is cheaper by far to prevent them developing the disease than to treat it.

Oh and for the silly woman on breakfast TV complaining about eating "chemicals" - you are made of chemicals and everything you eat is chemical you ignorant .... angry moi?

Final cynical point - I wonder how many lunches My Key has had with the manufacturers of B9 pills that are at the moment sold to all pregnant and planning women. A public health initiative like this would cut into their profits something awful.

Posted at 11:21AM on 15 Jul 09. Permalink.

So your logic is because we can't put as much in as we should we should put none in?

No. My logic is: does this work? If not, what might?