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Public Address
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1654
Busytown: A good read
I haven’t written for a while. My father died in August, and all my pretty words flew away. Actually, if only they had. Instead, they swooped and soared in my brain, coalescing into ominous shapes. They landed in musical lines on telephone wires, singing me awake night after night, as my mind furiously tried to make sense of the absolute affront of the fact of death, a lifetime’s conversation forever interrupted.
Emma Hart
From: Christchurch
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2629
Moderator
Oh, Jolisa. Beautiful and sad.
And oddly apposite, because plagiarism does make me feel grief-y, as if it's a loss of some kind.
The Herald story makes it sound like the Garth George excuse: that it was quoting that was accidentally not attributed. I get the feeling it's not that simple?
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
You'll be able to read the results in the Listener on Monday, or earlier, if you are a subscriber.
Yup -- got our copy this morning. Excellent detective work on your part, and for all the bitching of the Listener that goes on in these parts, isn't it rather flattering that this story scored the cover?
As for Ihimaera -- he's a very very lucky chap. Academics have been sacked -- and authors dumped by their publishers -- for less.
(BTW, anything I could say about your dad's death would be totally impertinent and redundant. So, for once in my life, I won't say a thing.)
The Herald story makes it sound like the Garth George excuse: that it was quoting that was accidentally not attributed. I get the feeling it's not that simple?
Good, Emma. I'm not the only one -- after all, you did have to go through the proofs of your book more than once, didn't you?
Ben Gracewood
From: Orkland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 122
I'm stunned that it's as simple as saying "sorry", and that the university finds "no deliberate wrong-doing."
So I understand: was there a mix of attributed and non-attributed stuff in the book? The Herald reads as if there were just some attributions left off a list.
Jolisa
From: Northeast US
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 769
I get the feeling it's not that simple?
It's definitely complex; the quotes were mostly tweaked and then spliced into the surrounding text. The Listener will have a sidebar featuring some of the more significant examples.
Lucy Stewart
From: Christchurch, NZ
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 992
It's definitely complex; the quotes were mostly tweaked and then spliced into the surrounding text. The Listener will have a sidebar featuring some of the more significant examples.
Oooooooh. That's...problematic. I know it can be easy to unconsciously re-use someone else's turn of phrase, but that sounds a bit more premeditated, as it were.
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
So I understand: was there a mix of attributed and non-attributed stuff in the book? The Herald reads as if there were just some attributions left off a list.
Ben: Since Jolisa is far too polite, let me be a proxy pimp and urge you to buy The Listener. :) The story soberly lays out the case that it's a lot more complex than The Herald would have you believe, and I'm also far from impressed by Jan Crosthwaite's response. I'm sure every arts student and academic at Auckland University would like to know the percentage tipping point where plagiarism crosses the line from "regrettable" and "a matter of concern" to very serious shit indeed.
Bart Janssen
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 745
So sorry to hear about your father. I know the sympathy of strangers can do little to ease the hurt but you have my sympathy nonetheless.
The words will fall back into place but it will take time. Talking with friends helped me, as did walking over most of Auckland in the week after my father died. But mostly it seems like it is just time that allows your thoughts to re-organise themselves.
richard
From: Not looking for New England...
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 142
Auckland University's investigation was indeed impressively quick and efficient.
Especially since it cannot be known whether the list of unattributed passages is complete -- given that we are told that the copying was unintentional, no-one can know for sure whether the list they looked at is exhaustive.
Emma Hart
From: Christchurch
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2629
Moderator
That's...problematic.
That's a word. It's not the one that sprang to my mind. Or yours, right?
you did have to go through the proofs of your book more than once, didn't you?
I'm just going to giggle in a slightly unhinged fashion. Yes, more than once. More than fuckloads.
Jacqui Craig
From: Auckland
Since: Apr 2007
Posts: 23
It IS a sinking feeling when you come across that sudden shift in tone or language isn't it? There seems to be a lot of this going around at the moment - high profile people being caught out plagiarising. And nothing happens to them as far as I can tell. Perhaps a small slap on the wrist, a bit of public humiliation and off they go. And the University's response is just disgusting - all the fine words about the seriousness of plagiarism, how awful it is, what dire consequences there will be etc. etc. when you assign essays to students, but if a lecturer does it oh well then, that's ok, must have been inadvertent. If anyone should know what plagiarism is and how not to do it, it should be him. No excuses and no waffling about what he did. It's no wonder that plagiarism is rife in schools and tertiary institutions, if the teachers are doing it and not being punished.
Nick Barnett
From: Wellington
Since: Aug 2009
Posts: 1
I met your father once, at his mother's funeral -- he made quite an impression, as you may have heard from others. Your family has lost quite a man. Glad he is a presence in your blog.
Best wishes from an unmet cousin-in-law.
Jolisa
From: Northeast US
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 769
By the way, if anyone has the article and the scanner, I'd love to see a copy! Will pay in.. uh.. leftover Halloween candy or something.
More soon, just off to talk to Radio NZ.
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
I'm just going to giggle in a slightly unhinged fashion. Yes, more than once. More than fuckloads.
Heh... that's what you get for being scrupulous and literate as well as a slashingly hot piece of arse. Bear your burden proudly, lovely Emma.
At least you're not as bad as Neil Gaiman who wrote several thousand words of (highly amusing) near-live blogs about how copy editing and proof reading American Gods was driving him insane -- in a good way, mostly.
(Mad Sweeney, for example, who claims when drunk to be Irish and a leprechaun, says "fucken" a lot. The copy editor has carefully gone through and carefully changed every "fucken" to "fuckin' ", figuring, I suppose, that I just didn't know how it was spelled.)
Jolisa
From: Northeast US
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 769
Nick, thank you so much! And Bart, and Emma, and everyone for words spoken and unspoken, and kind thoughts.
it's oddly apposite, because plagiarism does make me feel grief-y, as if it's a loss of some kind
And they call it a victimless crime. It has been a very queasy sort of a week, all round.
Danielle
From: PAS Women's XV Strategic Headquarters
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2249
mostly tweaked and then spliced into the surrounding text
Ruh-roh. (Sometimes, only the pidgin dog-English of Scooby-Doo can fully express my feelings.)
Deborah
From: Adelaide
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 815
I'm so sorry about your father's death, Jolisa.
Bart Janssen
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 745
Just as a comment about the University's reaction. I think most people still think of Universities as academic and pure organisations. However, nowadays they are under tremendous pressure to bring in paying students and an author that well known does bring in students. That creates a conflict for the University that is uncomfortable for everyone. The cost of showing him the door would be large and could well leave them open to legal comeback.
The cost of slapping him on the wrist and keeping him is merely a moral one.
Lucy Stewart
From: Christchurch, NZ
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 992
That's a word. It's not the one that sprang to my mind. Or yours, right?
Mostly as a euphemism for "a fucking stupid thing to do", I will admit.
Kyle Matthews
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 4403
Jacqui is right, the university's response is interesting to say the least. Lots of students will have got back big red zeros on essays for doing something similar.
3410
From: Auckland
Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 1319
My condolences and empathetic feelings, J.
The Herald reports that "He said of the 528 page novel, less than 0.4 per cent had been published without acknowledgement." I guess I'm not the only one who thought, "that's... (hmmm... 20 pages?)... quite a lot, actually."
Deborah
From: Adelaide
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 815
Yes... but usually there's a process, and they get a second chance, but if they stuff up on the second chance, then they get penalised.
It's an odd feeling, when you're reading an essay, and something doesn't quite seem right. The language changes subtly, or sometimes not so subtly. The most obvious ones are where everything suddenly becomes grammatically correct. I'm sure there are cases of "extensive unattributed quoting" that I've missed, but I've picked up a few too, via that prickly feeling and google.
Isabel Hitchings
From: Christchurch
Since: Jul 2007
Posts: 335
So sorry for your loss Jolisa.
Emma Hart
From: Christchurch
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2629
Moderator
scrupulous and literate as well as a slashingly hot piece of arse
I'm shitted that's a bit long for a t-shirt. See, this is why I keep telling people you're lovely.
Mostly as a euphemism for "a fucking stupid thing to do", I will admit.
And "pretty much impossible to do by accident".
David Haywood
From: Christchurch
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 540
Moderator
Lots of students will have got back big red zeros on essays for doing something similar.
As I said to Jolisa in an email, the Department of Engineering at UoC would kick people out of the course for plagiarism (depending on severity).
The logic being that engineers can so very easily kill people, and you can't let the dishonest and unreliable types loose on society. So it could easily turn into a victim-filled crime in my (former) profession.
But happily for Prof I., Auckland University appears to be more relaxed about this kind of thing. (Unless Bart's depressing theory has something in it...)
Ben Gracewood
From: Orkland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 122
Aside: among the greater things I regret about Dad's passing was that we did not record his 'Fun'eral as an instructional video.
HOWTO: Secular White Man's Funeral.
Bart Janssen
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 745
hmmm... 20 pages?
0.4% = 2 pages
Which is exactly 2 pages too many.
It's weird an engineering school would simply throw someone out for this and for an engineer writing is not the whole of the craft. Quite rightly of course because it speaks to integrity and for an engineer integrity = lives.
But for an author writing is the whole of the craft. The creative effort is the thing. There may not be lives at stake but surely for an author crediting another author's work should be paramount. It will of course be more complicated and I do get that but still...
3410
From: Auckland
Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 1319
0.4% = 2 pages
Oh, shit. So it does.
Perhaps my previous comment should be squashed, if that's felt appropriate.
Lucy Stewart
From: Christchurch, NZ
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 992
It's weird an engineering school would simply throw someone out for this and for an engineer writing is not the whole of the craft. Quite rightly of course because it speaks to integrity and for an engineer integrity = lives.
Engineers belong to a professional body which has a code of ethics; they try to impress upon them early that they need to learn to follow them. They take the "profession" bit seriously; gives them a reason to swank over science students, who just have careers.
(I know this because I was once dragooned into helping mark first-year engineering students' essays on why engineers were professionals rather than, e.g., common tradesmen. Plagiarism would have provided some light relief. And grammar.)
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
Perhaps my previous comment should be squashed, if that's felt appropriate.
No -- because, as Bart said, two pages of plagiarism is two too many.
But here's a question that's nagging me: Does Penguin NZ, which is a division of the second largest publishing group on Earth, bother with the art of editing any more? Should we trust that Penguin NZ's non-fiction list is reliable, and has been subjected to even rudimentary fact-checking?
Or is all it too expensive to bother with?
Carol Stewart
From: Wellington
Since: Jul 2008
Posts: 205
Geoff Walker of Penguin NZ was pretty terse when asked to explain ..
Thank goodness for excellent reviewers like Jolisa.
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