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Posted at 10:43AM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I find it hard to think of any demographic less likely to become terrorists than doctors. They have a lot to live for, and live to heal.

What a quack. Need any more really be said?

Posted at 10:50AM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Time to ramp up the smoke machine against "socialized" medicine again... Bill and Hillary had the temerity to suggest moving to such a scheme, and look what it got them.

Posted at 10:53AM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I'm more worried about how good they are. Any fifteen year old with internet access should be able to make a bomb. Boy scouts would do it. A wacko like McVeigh could do it.
These guys dump some petrol and gas cannisters in- yeah, two mercedes, just to prove they're really doctors- well, with planning and executions skills that slip-shod, I'm glad they're not looking after my health!

Posted at 11:14AM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

McVeigh was trying to make a point about the injustice of the 1st Gulf War, admittedly in a wacko way.

Interesting the fear that foreign Drs will import their problems with them (problems largely exported by the west).
Contrast this with the Yarpie at Waikato DHB looking to exclude 'ineligible' patients. A bit of Race based health care?

Posted at 11:25AM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

and to perpetually perceive threat.

and then there is the "new" threat to Bali and Indonesia as per the new MFAT travel advisory from Australia. I was told yesterday by a neigbour from their consulate that there is no new information or threat, just a worry that too many Australians are coming here (btw you are twice as likely to die violently in Australia as you are in Indonesia).

Posted at 11:46AM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

That's a great piece by Craig. But I did enjoy the irony of his "and pay careful attention" admonishon to his listeners :-)

Any fifteen year old with internet access should be able to make a bomb.

This was the case even before the advent of the internet. Could even be the subject of one of Russell's monthly story gathering initiatives.

Posted at 12:05PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Must. Leave. America. Now.

(where Now == 16 days, and counting)

I almost got the cable people to put a block on FoxNews, 'cos I was starting to throw things at the screen when I surfed past.

Of course, my next major stop after the US is the UK..... (sigh).

Posted at 12:08PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I seem to remember trying to give "The Devil Dared Me To" guys some money when they were selling patches on Dick's suit.

It was a very hard transaction to complete, unsurprising when you see the 20/20 segment.

Posted at 12:55PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Could even be the subject of one of Russell's monthly story gathering initiatives

Encyclopaedia Britannica, open science classroom window, hey presto - gunpowder. 70% carbon, 20% sulphur, 10% potassium nitrate (memory hazy). 1987 I think...

Posted at 1:23PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Any fifteen year old with internet access should be able to make a bomb

I tried hard and only managed to singe my eyebrows. It's the KNO3 that's hard to get. Plus the right grade of sulphur and charcoal. Plus your proportions are wrong - read Clive Ponting's book "Gunpowder" for the details.

I read in some wingnut rag, the Guardian I think, that it was likely that furrin anaesthetists would kill their patients as an act of terrerism. Secretly. I'm not sure how marginally increasing the death rate under anaesthetics would help the cause though..

I do have a better suggestion, which would be for the "Al" to pretend that they have hundreds of activists in key positions in the NHS, London Transport, the power utilities, etc. Then, after they're all sacked, the resulting staff shortages would lead to death and dislocation on a scale that would far outweigh anything they could do by the "self-immolation in carparks" method.

Posted at 1:25PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

That's a great piece by Craig. But I did enjoy the irony of his "and pay careful attention" admonishon to his listeners :-)

Fair cop, you could almost hear me waggling my finger in a school-marmish way. :) But, really, if you're going to use the plural form of 'group' in your lead and headline, then you better come up with more than one. I actually agree with Russell - you can have a serious argument on all kinds of level about whether trying to import our health sector workforce like flat-screen TVs is anything more than a quick fix patch. I'd be thankful if the only daily newspaper in New Zealand's largest media market would contribute to it.

Posted at 1:35PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I find it hard to think of any demographic less likely to become terrorists than doctors. They have a lot to live for, and live to heal.

I'd like to think so. But Ben Goldacre dug up a rather disturbing factoid, in passing, in the column I linked to in the last thread,:

Doctors had been active participants in the Nazi project, and joined Hitler’s National Socialist party in greater numbers than any other profession (**45% were party members, compared with 20% of teachers**).

I'm not trying to get this thread Godwined, but while it would be nice to think putting your kids though medical school would act as a vaccine against being a religious fanatic or a murderous ideological bigot, it doesn't work like that. Bugger.

Posted at 1:41PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Well there you go. Silly old me. I'd always been in favour of a health care system where the state plays a core role for the simple reason that it is demonstrably more efficient (if you want to guarantee provision in any way). But I'd never thought about those Jihadis (why do they hate us so?).

Gasp! we could be a target. Heck we'd better scrap the system pronto: party vote ACT this election. That's what I say.

Posted at 1:45PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I'm not trying to get this thread Godwined, but while it would be nice to think putting your kids though medical school would act as a vaccine against being a religious fanatic or a murderous ideological bigot, it doesn't work like that.

I'm wondering if the high percentage of doctors joining the Nazi party might have had something to do with the widespread acceptance of eugenics in western societies during the early twentieth century. Was there some kind of warped healthy-sciencey rationalising at play?

Posted at 1:49PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Gasp! we could be a target. Heck we'd better scrap the system pronto: party vote ACT this election. That's what I say.

Well, if you're that worried about dirty furriners prodding your nethers before they strap a bomb to Granny's new hip -- and judging from the accents and skin tones of the folks who treated my partner when he had his heart op done at Mercy, there's just as many of THEM in the private sector -- you better put your vote elsewhere.

Posted at 2:00PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I'm wondering if the high percentage of doctors joining the Nazi party might have had something to do with the widespread acceptance of eugenics in western societies during the early twentieth century.

I would imagine it was more of a high-society thing. When certain members of the community join the party it would be join or be ostracised. Peer pressure is a powerful tool.

However, being a doctor doesn't make you ethically above everyone else. Remember those "no you can't have any birth control" doctors in the states? And I was told some similarly awful NZ doctor stories by a friend recently.

Posted at 2:09PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Frankly, there are valid reasons for concern about having to constantly import doctors doctors trained in other systems.

Not the least of which is that it implies that the local education system is failing. If you can't channel the money going into the education system (not an inconsiderable amount) into production of trained people in the areas we actually need them, then you need to "fix" the education system.

It gets worse. Doctors are highly regarded and generally one of the better paid professions. A decent number of the bright young things actually want to become doctors both for the money and because they want to heal people. But we aren't producing enough and a lot of what we produce just leaves NZ.

But there are other parts of the tertiary system that are doing even worse. The sciences are never as popular as medicine and the pay is worse at the end too, and none of your friends have any clue what you do. If it's bad in medicine it's worse in science. Finding good bright graduates in the sciences is getting very hard.

Mind you it does seem as though the Government doesn't really care. It's Ok to import doctors, it's Ok to import scientists to do research in NZ. And ultimately if you can't get research done in NZ you can always import discoveries from overseas.

But don't worry we will have more than enough middle managers trained to manage our way out of any problems that such a policy might cause. Because if there is one thing the tertiary system in NZ does produce it's middle managers.

cheers
Bart

Posted at 2:13PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

This link I guess Craig: http://www.badscience.net/?p=442#more-442?

A lot of scientists joined or supported the Nazis (von Braun and Heisenburg, for instance). I'd suggest that early 20th century scientific training was pretty narrow and that, combined with German attitudes to authority, led to them accepting Nazism without too much thought (for one thing, it gave them lots of funding).

Posted at 2:28PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Terence, surely this cannot be true:

Efficiency: On indicators of efficiency, the U.S. ranks last among the six countries, with the U.K. and New Zealand ranking first and second, respectively.

What about all the money wasted on faceless bureaucrats and unnecessary form filling by our GPs?

Posted at 2:36PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Sorry Craig my last post was missing a tag. It should have ended with
[/sarcasm] (which is a pity really, it would have been quite fun to have you out flank me from the left :) )

Don,

Just in case your post doesn't end with the same tag: bureaucracies - they created an even bigger one in the US, with insurers trying to avoid paying, hospitals trying to make them pay twice, and the whole adverse selection thing.

Posted at 3:22PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

What about all the money wasted on faceless bureaucrats and unnecessary form filling by our GPs?

Stories told to me by friends about their experiences with the US health system, insurance companies, etc, make our system look sane and efficient in comparison.

Seriously, monkeys on acid could design a better health system than some of the moronic things I've heard. It'll be interesting to see what Michael Moore's Sicko movie has to say and the reaction to it.

Posted at 3:24PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

I think I read somewhere that the NHS had a substantially smaller admin overhead than other organisations of similar size and complexity.

Posted at 4:48PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

"if one of your guys is a jihadist, if one of your doctors is spending all the time online reading Osama bin Laden fatwas, someone's going to notice that. But the National Health Service is more like the Post Office, you know there's a lot of anonymity, it's easy to hide in the bureaucracy."

Oh yes, I was in London only last year and had to wait 17 hours at the local NHS while Dr Zawhahwiwwiiaa and his chums plotted their revenge on the West. And when I finally got in he made me show him my passport to prove I wasn't Australian, and wouldn't treat me until I placed my hand on the Koran and shouted "Allie Akbar" three times.

Being a kiwi I considered it a "cultural issue" and best not to mention it to anyone.

Posted at 5:23PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Terrorists look for loop-holes in any system. They found one in the Bristish immigration checks for medical physicians. They used it. Simple as that.

Posted at 6:29PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

when did anyone start taking Fox News - esp. Neil Cavuto seriously?

In this recent vid, Tommy appears on FOX News' 'Your World' show to talk about immigration with the painfully smug Bush apologist Neil Cavuto, who doesn't quite know how to react to Chong's repeated assertion that President Bush is a "moron."

Best moment: Tommy's reaction to Cavuto saying with a straight face that Bush "is overseeing one of the strongest economies this nation has ever had."

youtube link

Posted at 6:38PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Craig - Don't you think those old number from the 1930's might be be for reasons others than being a doctor.

There would probably be a correlation between wealth and party membership that might be more insightful or any number of other clues.

Just no sure you can drwa the bow that long.

Medical education and general literacy - not to say anything about political debate might also have changed the groundrules in the past 60-70 yrs.

"Doctors had been active participants in the Nazi project, and joined Hitler’s National Socialist party in greater numbers than any other profession (45% were party members, compared with 20% of teachers)."

I'm not trying to get this thread Godwined, but while it would be nice to think putting your kids though medical school would act as a vaccine against being a religious fanatic or a murderous ideological bigot, it doesn't work like that. Bugger.

Posted at 7:05PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Terrorists look for loop-holes in any system. They found one in the Bristish immigration checks for medical physicians

Yes, they were obviously ultra-sophisticated international terrorists. Clearly the one and only gap in their skills was not realising that petrol isn't an explosive

Posted at 8:38PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Paul Krugman,

Has a good go at the terrorists and socialised health care thing in the NYT. open link

Posted at 8:40PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

aaarrgghhh...worst typo thus far. I'm talking about Paul Krugman, not to him, and the link's meant to be for the rest of you.

Sigh....time...to.....switch....to......backup.....brain.......

Posted at 11:07PM on 11 Jul 07. Permalink.

Only the names have changed really.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pogues/streets+of+sorrowbirmingham+six_20109737.html
Pogues lyrics of Birmingham six still have a ring of truth to them.

Christy Moore Scapegoats