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Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1654
Hard News: Free Man
It's clear enough that the SIS had legitimate cause for concern, on the basis of the information it held, when Ahmed Zaoui arrived five years ago. Those were fevered times. But by the time the Refugee Status Appeals Authority had published its comprehensive finding, the game was surely up, or should have been.
Idiot Savant
From: Palmerston North
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1210
But it's scary bigots-a-go-go over at Kiwiblog.
You haven't seen the half of it. This one is calling for ethnic clensing...
Danyl Mclauchlan
From: Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 641
This one is calling for ethnic clensing...
I'd be more shocked if you linked to a kiwiblog thread that didn't contain a call for genocide.
Andrew Smith
Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 150
I noted an interesting comment from a listener on Leighton Smith this morning (that's 'outed me'...yes I listen to his show sometimes...). He stated that Zaoui was involved in an anti-American demonstration last March. Not so 'bad' in itself, and that he spoke publicly there (also not so 'bad'). However, the concerning thing for me was that he just stood by 'unprotestant' as the NZ flag was burnt. Seems rather incongruess to what he states publicly about our fair country.
Danyl Mclauchlan
From: Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 641
btw, if Zaoui needs more volunteers for his 'sleepy cell' - I'm there. I now realise I've been training all my life for such a mission.
kowhai montgomery
From: wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 446
Andrew, I don't follow you. What are you saying?
Michael Stevens
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 194
Given the time he arrived, not that long after 9/11, and coming from his particular political background, I don't think the SIS over-reacted initially. But I think they then got blinded by the thought of "Islamic terrorist" and left rational enquiry at the door.
I'm not telepathic so I don't know what his real intentions or beliefs are - he might believe in establishing a worldwide Caliphate and destroying the values I hold dear in the process,on the other hand he very well might not.
I know Muslims living in NZ at the moment who do want to bring about Islamic rule around the globe, who see it as inevitable and God's plan, but they are really not that different from the nutters who believe in hastening the apocalypse and Christ's reign on earth.
But is he a risk to NZ society now? I certainly don't think so.
Charles Mabbett
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 234
What a dope! Malaysia is a secular country with a Muslim majority. It also has Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Sikhs and Jews. Turkey and Indonesia are other secular countries with Muslim majorities. But it does ask the question why did Ahmed Zaoui come to New Zealand? I'm not sure but perhaps Malaysia and Algeria have an extradition treaty. Also many Muslims remember the Tampa case and I can proudly say that New Zealand covered itself it glory over that. I was in Rajasthan and a stranger who wanted to know where I was from was positively effusive when I said I was from NZ because of the Tampa story was well known there. Interestingly enough it was just a couple of weeks before September 11.
Charles Mabbett
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 234
BTW - Dope refers to the Ethnic Cleansing link.
hamishm
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 267
if Zaoui needs more volunteers for his 'sleepy cell' - I'm there
That would be the Dunlopillo sleepy cell.
Neil Morrison
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 642
Her account was that the SIS had never previously asked about those people.
But Zaoui was well aware that it was what ever contacts with people from the GIA that were of concern to the SIS. Not fully disclosing significant contact with that group was hardly going make him look open and honest.
That said, time has moved on, he seems to have distanced himself from his ex-colleagues who had turned nasty. The other odd thing the Herald reports is that Zaoui fears those ex-colleagues. If true that might explain the mystery of his wanting to leave Malaysia.
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9060
Moderator
That said, time has moved on, he seems to have distanced himself from his ex-colleagues who had turned nasty. The other odd thing the Herald reports is that Zaoui fears those ex-colleagues. If true that might explain the mystery of his wanting to leave Malaysia.
The on-the-record story about Malaysia relates to the visit of a senior Algerian security official, allegedly to observe Malaysian policing practices. Zaoui feared he was actually the subject of the visit. I'd be scared in his position.
Andrew Smith
Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 150
Kowhai. I guess I am of the generation that links our flag to all that we hold dear as a country...it symbolises who we are. I find it difficult, like many people over the age of 50 or 60, to hear of our flag being burnt. So I just wonder what values does Zaoui actually hold. He comes here wanting to live in freedom and yet despises the symbol of that freedom.
Charles Mabbett
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 234
I find this interesting from the SIS decision:
The key finding by the French court is that Mr Zaoui had possessed electronic items that could be used for bombmaking.
Could be anything - a digital alarm clock or a stop watch.
Charles Mabbett
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 234
Gosh, maybe Zaoui was within 100 metres of the burning of a New Zealand flag???
Charles Mabbett
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 234
We need a new flag anyway.
sorry, it's Friday.
Andrew Smith
Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 150
Friday!! Better get back to work and stop talking flags then..
kowhai montgomery
From: wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 446
Well, you expressed yourself clearly that time Andrew.
Standing in the vicinity of a burning NZ flag is not what I would choose to get exercised about but I take your point about the generation gap.
Russell Brown
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 9060
Moderator
Kowhai. I guess I am of the generation that links our flag to all that we hold dear as a country...it symbolises who we are. I find it difficult, like many people over the age of 50 or 60, to hear of our flag being burnt. So I just wonder what values does Zaoui actually hold. He comes here wanting to live in freedom and yet despises the symbol of that freedom.
As Charles says, for goodness sake, he happened to be somewhere near where somebody else burned a flag. What was he supposed to do? Sprint through the crowd and tackle the perpetrator?
I understand your discomfort with it, but the right to burn the flag has been upheld by a New Zealand court as a matter of free expression under the Bill of Rights Act 1990.
Idiot Savant
From: Palmerston North
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1210
However, the concerning thing for me was that he just stood by 'unprotestant' as the NZ flag was burnt.
Well of course he was "unprotestant". He's a Muslim.
And I agree with Kowhai - it is difficult to see what your point is here. In this country, we're free to burn the flag, and no-one is required to pretend to patriotism as a religion, any more than they are required to pretend to Christianity. Those are things I value deeply, and I think they are far more important than any flammable scrap of cloth.
Leopold
Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 70
Speaking as one over 50, I am not at all exercised about the burning of our flag - the design of which should have been replaced by something better yonks ago (silver fern anyone?)
We are not Americans who seem to worship their flag...
Idiot Savant
From: Palmerston North
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1210
As Charles says, for goodness sake, he happened to be somewhere near where somebody else burned a flag. What was he supposed to do? Sprint through the crowd and tackle the perpetrator?
And if he had, no doubt people would be claiming that such an act of violence "proved" he was a terrorist.
Zaoui has spent the past five years being victimised for the acts of others. It would be nice if people stopped doing it.
dc_red
From: City of Champions, Canada
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 599
While it's always tempting to dismiss the DPF comments section as an echo-chamber for the disaffected, I fear the Herald's comment section is little better.
One idea being given some play in both fora is that it is all part of a plot to get Helen Clark into the UN Secretary-General's chair. Y'know, despite the fact that she had nothing to do with the decision. Other popular ideas include that we are now at imminent risk of terrorist attack, that OBL will be moving here forthwith (I assume that's metaphorical), and that Zaoui "should have been put straight back on the plane when he landed."
One thing that bothers me about the Herald commentators more generally is their inability to distinguish between the Parliament, the Government, and the Labour Party. They're all one amorphous mass out to swindle the taxpayer, make us a soft touch to terrorists, expose us to terrorist bombs, undermine "our Christian heritage", usurp parents' rights, and generally defy commonsense.
Joanna
From: Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 546
I kinda think that living somewhere where you can burn the flag is a symbol of the country even more so than the actual flag.
Tom Semmens
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1094
The issue for me with the whole sorry Zaoui affair was never about his innocence or guilt, it was about the process used to determine that innocence or guilt. At base, l am afraid I have zero faith in the decision making of our "meat pie and penthouse" SIS. Their apparent reliance on google and whatever foreign intelligence services choose to tell them deepened my suspicions that the SIS is basically an incompetent organisation in lockstep with people who I don't really like alot, and they use secrecy mainly as a screen for their incompetence. The bottom line is I don't trust the SIS to exercise their authority competently.
Charles Mabbett
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 234
Now if it was the All Black flag, then I'd be annoyed.
Tom Semmens
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 1094
"...One thing that bothers me about the Herald commentators more generally is their inability to distinguish between the Parliament, the Government, and the Labour Party..."
It always astonishes me that people who are unable to grasp such simple concepts as the separation of government or how MMP actually works seem able to white whole essays explaining the (to me, cos I very very seldom gamble) complexities of lotto.
Actually I never regarded lotto as complex, I've looked at the odds and thats I need to know about it.
Craig Ranapia
From: North Shore, Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 7160
Anyway, talking abour scary bigots a go-go, Russell, glad to see therespectable face of brown-neck immigrant-bashing is dead.
dc_red
From: City of Champions, Canada
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 599
Their apparent reliance on google and whatever foreign intelligence services choose to tell them deepened my suspicions that the SIS is basically an incompetent organisation in lockstep with people who I don't really like alot, and they use secrecy mainly as a screen for their incompetence.
I am tempted to agree wholeheartedly, but I assume this forum could be googled in the future!
Michael Stevens
From: Auckland
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 194
Now I have to disagree - I am so utterly sick of being told a franchise of a multi-national corporation (the IRB) represents us and I owe it my loyalty I would happily burn ten thousand All Black flags.
Oh God, will I get arrested and locked up for saying that?
Emma Hart
From: Christchurch
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 2629
Moderator
Anyway, talking abour scary bigots a go-go, Russell, glad to see therespectable face of brown-neck immigrant-bashing is dead.
Cheers, Craig. Disrespectful as it is, that's totally brightened my day.
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