Indiana Jonesing

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  • James Bremner,

    I would have thought being accepted into Harvard and Princeton would be hardly be evidence of discrimination, quite the opposite in fact. But read Michele Obama's stump speech, it is enough to make you want to cut your wrists, it does not represent the average American's experience.

    And more relevant to the point I was making, her diatribe of negativity won’t do her husband a lot of good trying to win the White House. And it doesn't matter whether I am a transplant from NZ or Mars, the point is valid and it being quite widely discussed at the moment. It first surfaced after her "I am proud of my country for the first time in my life" comment. Perhaps she is the reason they kept going to Trinity for 20 years, maybe she just lapped up Wright's loony tunes.

    (If you want to read a useful book read "Come On People, the path from victims to victors" by Bill Cosby and Alvin Poussaint. Michele Obama would do much better studying that book rather than listening to Wright and his ilk.)

    Craig,
    You are quite right; the Repubs are looking at a hiding in Nov. You would have thought that after being whipped in 2006, they would have done some navel gazing and figured out what they had done wrong, and fix it, and put forth a platform that addressed the concerns of the American people. But oh no, not these goons. They can't get it into their thick heads that they lost because the American people were disgusted with their out of control spending, earmarks and corruption. I might even consider voting Dem myself if it wasn't for the fact that the Dems will only be much worse on those fronts, throw in promising the biggest tax increase in US history, appointing "make shit up as you go along" judges, whimping out against Islamic fascists, lining up to kiss tyrants butts etc. etc. and the most likely outcome in Nov, the Dems with both houses and the White House its not a pretty picture.

    It truly is a choice between sucks, and sucks worse. But oh well, what are you going to do? Whatever will be, will be.

    NOLA • Since Nov 2006 • 341 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    I would have thought being accepted into Harvard and Princeton would be hardly be evidence of discrimination, quite the opposite in fact.

    It isn't evidence of anything on its own. The fact that one person made it doesn't yield evidence about the experience of the group; the fact one person made it doesn't tell you what obstacles that person faced.

    the average American's experience
    I don't think the average American is a white man.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2968 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    He hated them to a degree that was simply deranged.

    I don't really think so -- yes, Hitchens doesn't pull his punches. But if he was "deranged' where the Clintons are concerned, I don't think he was any less so when it came to Thatcher, Reagan or either Bush.

    And in case anyone didn't notice, Hitchens is an atheist who wrote a charming (and best-selling) tome with the in your face title "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything'. So colour me shocked that Obama and Wright push all his buttons. (Even then, I don't recall him being any less rude about Jerry Falwell post mortem than he was when he was alive.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    (or, as I suspect Craig would see it, towards the established conservative tradition)

    Indeed -- and I don't consider the current theocon wing of the GOP 'conservative' in any way, shape or form -- big spending, panty-sniffing statists with Bibles. Fuck 'em.

    If nothing else, the GOP should pay very close attention to the Conservatives across the water. What does David Cameron have that you chaps don't?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    I would have thought being accepted into Harvard and Princeton would be hardly be evidence of discrimination, quite the opposite in fact.

    Did you just say what I think you just said?

    it doesn't matter whether I am a transplant from NZ or Mars, the point is valid

    No, the point is bullshit race-baiting combined with sexism to create a perfect storm of... nothing. Additionally, you telling Michelle Obama what she should or should not think is the absolute height of hubris.

    (If you want to read a useful book read "Come On People, the path from victims to victors" by Bill Cosby and Alvin Poussaint. Michele Obama would do much better studying that book

    Again with the ridiculous paternalism. She can think, and say, what she likes. If she doesn't go for the Cosby/Duff/bootstraps approach to marginalised communities, that is *her prerogative*. Criticising your country for its poor race relations is hardly advocating race war, is it? If he loses the election based on his wife's 23 year old thesis (which I have skim-read, and which is hardly mouth-frothing, I might add), then... well.... I throw up my hands. I mean, really.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3661 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Hosking,

    Hitchens' screed is a spectacular example of sexist commentary directed at Michelle Obama. Gawd, he's a horrible man ...

    In a partial defence of Hitchens, or maybe mitigation is a better word....Personally I enjoy his non-political writing, especially on literature. His collection 'Unacknowledged Legislators' is one of my favourite books. Thoughtful, insightful and at times quite funny.

    I rarely read him on politics, because his style is a bit like being trapped in a phone booth with a hyper-active, hyper-articulate, hyper-obsessive drunk and you feel you have to go for a walk around the waterfront afterwards and contemplate the seagulls or whatever to sort of clear your head and calm down a bit.

    I've thought a good response to his 'God is Not Great' book with its sub-title 'Religion Poisons Everything' would be something along the lines of 'Politics Poisons Everything' and taking a lot of Hitchens own writings as the main evidence.

    South Roseneath • Since Nov 2006 • 805 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    What does David Cameron have that you chaps don't?

    10 years out of office?

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3009 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    What does David Cameron have that you chaps don't?

    Crosby / Textor? Whose little elfs will be coming to a blog land near you soon.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1616 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Crosby / Textor? Whose little elfs will be coming to a blog land near you soon.

    And nothing to do with Cameron finally being in charge of a party that's expending more energy on fighting Labour than feral infighting over shit people just didn't care about? Been funny watching the right-wing Brit blogisphere coming to the conclusion that 'Labour-lite' hoodie-hugging Dave isn't quite so bad after all. Guess nothing succeeds like success.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Hmmm. The Clinton campaign's new rhetoric is focusing on race in a very, very questionable way.

    Get this:

    "I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

    "There's a pattern emerging here," she said.

    One might hope she just misspoke when she appeared to conflate "hard-working Americans" with "white Americans", but it seems that her spokespeople are hammering the race issue too.

    Seriously unimpressed black blogger here and here.

    Funny thing is, as a Kos diarist points out, she nearly lost Indiana because she nearly lost women

    I'm sure Neil will have an excellent rationalisation for all this, but it would be putting it politely to say this is distasteful. WTF does she think she's doing?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18969 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    WTF does she think she's doing?

    The memoirs, if they can be taken at face value, of the last couple of months, will be very interesting in hindsight. Both what she's thinking, and the advice that she's getting.

    I struggle to see what she's doing as well. If we assume that the presidential nomination is out of her reach, barring Obama having some super scandal or something, then I would assume she's lining up the bottom half of the ticket. Which I would have thought she'd already had sewn up. And the opportunity to be the 'bigger man', and unite the party by stepping back now and then graciously stepping forward again come VP announcement.

    Even if she's not after the VP nomination, I can't see anything else that she might want that's advanced by continuing.

    I struggle to see what she gains by battling on.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6205 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    WTF does she think she's doing?

    Apart from treating white blue collar Democrats with unmitigated contempt? Seriously, why not just go all the way there and say "white trash are never going to vote for a nigger, so you might was well conduce to McCain now" - which would at least pay people the respect of being nakedly racist and condescending.

    And if this is her audition for a 'unity' ticket, she should start handing out the piss cups to her campaign advisers. There has to be some seriously bad drugs doing the rounds in that campaign.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    White Americans?

    I guess she figures it'll help her numbers in West Virginia.

    It does make you wonder what's she's doing though. She's just hit the tipping point where significant numbers of 'black Americans' will stay at home in November rather than vote for her and there's simply no way a democrat can win without huge support from that community.

    So is this all about spoiling tactics or has she just totally lost perspective?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 902 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Thomas,

    I would assume she's lining up the bottom half of the ticket

    that seems to me to be the logical way out of this mess (apart from her graciously stepping down!). Although I did read somewhere, that Edwards is also trying for VP

    Reuters: Obama open to Clinton as possible running mate

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 315 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    that seems to me to be the logical way out of this mess (apart from her graciously stepping down!).

    She has to step down at some stage, unless she takes it through to a floor fight at the convention, which I think would kill her chances of clearing the cabinet table of empty cups, let alone sitting at one of the seats.

    Obama openly signalled in that story you linked to that she could have the VP-ship. To take it she needs to withdraw at some stage and give him a clear run. Come convention he then pulls her forward and they raise arms together and balloon and banners and four hours of cheering from the faithful blah blah blah.

    Edwards would be interesting, but I presume that story has ruled him out from Obama's point of view. It would make sense for Obama to take Hilary, no side of the party then feels ripped off by the endless nomination fight, everyone has someone to vote for.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6205 posts Report Reply

  • Nick D'Angelo,

    If we assume that the presidential nomination is out of her reach, ... then I would assume she's lining up the bottom half of the ticket. Which I would have thought she'd already had sewn up.

    Both candidates know they will not be the other's VP. They don't actually like eachother, such has been the battle thus far. If Obama nominates Clinton as his VP and if she then accepts it, watch out because Hell will freeze over next.

    barring Obama having some super scandal or something,

    Which is precisely her reason for hanging on. To be fair this strategy has almost worked for her.

    Seriously, why not just go all the way there and say "white trash are never going to vote for a nigger..."

    But you're not serious are you? Not even White Power will say that in front of the media... that's why it's called politics.

    So is this all about spoiling tactics or has she just totally lost perspective?

    She has lost perspective. She cannot see the wood for the trees. Or has she? She knows this is her last chance. She can never run again. She's worked her whole life for this and would have slam dunked it if not for a viable African American candidate. She must be kicking herself now for allowing Obama to make that convention speech all those years ago. Perhaps she has taken a leaf from Malcolm X ie 'By any means necessary'

    Come convention he then pulls her forward and they raise arms together and balloon and banners and four hours of cheering from the faithful blah blah blah.

    __If__ it happens that is how it will happen. But only after Obama has had her frisked for knives first. When she embraces him watch to see if she points out a spot on his back to the snipers.

    Simon Laan • Since May 2008 • 157 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Both candidates know they will not be the other's VP. They don't actually like eachother, such has been the battle thus far. If Obama nominates Clinton as his VP and if she then accepts it, watch out because Hell will freeze over next.

    Obviously, it's difficult to know for sure, but I don't buy that. The statement that was linked to above - made on CNN - is sending her a strong signal.

    He's basically standing there talking about her while pretending not to notice that she's 5 feet away pretending not to eavesdrop.

    "Hey yeah, Hillary would make a great VP. She's very qualified, very smart, she campaigns hard. Man, if only there was a way that I could let her know that I would pick her as my VP if she pulled out... Oh Hillary! Hullo, didn't see you there. Gee, nice weather here in West Virginia isn't it?"

    Two people don't need to like each other to be running mates. In fact, often that hasn't been the case. They both have enough ambition, and (I would have thought until a couple of days ago) political nous to recognise the way forward.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6205 posts Report Reply

  • Nick D'Angelo,

    Two people don't need to like each other to be running mates.

    I completely agree, and I think Obama's statement 'proves' he's the bigger man. There's already talk of him paying off her 10+ million dollar debt (been done before, and viable if he'll spend that anyway continuing to run against her). But it could bite him in the bum if she calls him on it and accepts.
    It would be fascinating to see Clinton as his VP. Would it herald a new type of VP ie a 'two-fer'? Or would she be forced into the typically subservient VP role? And how long would it last - would she be waiting for him to stuff up or get shot? What if she wanted to run in 2012?

    Simon Laan • Since May 2008 • 157 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Well.... he could hand a large policy area over to her, like healthcare.

    My dream team would be the other way around (for reasons), but that's highly unlikely now. But one of my reasons for preferring Clinton (by a margin) was that it would have been great to see the mad patriarchs in places like Afghanistan forced to deal with that most perfidious of creatures, a woman.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1323 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    it would have been great to see the mad patriarchs in places like Afghanistan forced to deal with that most perfidious of creatures, a woman.

    You mean like how they've been dealing with Condaleeza Rice?

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3009 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    And how long would it last - would she be waiting for him to stuff up or get shot? What if she wanted to run in 2012?

    When was the last time a sitting President was challenged for his second term by his VP? The President would have to be a complete disaster, and even then it'd be incredibly controversial.

    She's 61 come the election. 2016 would make her 69. Pushing it in terms of age, but not impossible. He might decide to only do one term of course.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6205 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    There's already talk of him paying off her 10+ million dollar debt

    I'm not sure the people who donated to the Obama campaign would be too thrilled to see their cash handed over to their multi-millionaire enemy.

    I guess its possible Obama will pick Clinton as VP but I think he knows that would lead to a four to eight year perpetual power struggle if they made it to the White House.

    There's also the question of how the two camps could possibly coordinate the presidential campaign at their current levels of animosity.

    And I don't buy the argument that he needs her to boost support in problem demographics. He needs someone, but it doesn't have to be his implacable enemy and one of the most hated, polarising figures in American politics - some cross-over Governor in the mid-west will do just as nicely.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 902 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    He might decide to only do one term of course.

    People, let's not get ahead of ourselves. He is, quite obviously, going to *lose to McCain*.

    some cross-over Governor in the mid-west

    I'm going with a southern dude. Or at least someone with a little twang in his voice.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3661 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    __ it would have been great to see the mad patriarchs in places like Afghanistan forced to deal with that most perfidious of creatures, a woman.__

    You mean like how they've been dealing with Condaleeza Rice?

    Good point. Though possibly there's a qualitative difference between dealing with someone who still has to report to the boss back home, and dealing with someone who is the boss.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1323 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    one of the most hated, polarising figures in American politics

    You mean like so hated that a massive 43% of Democrats still prefer her.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1323 posts Report Reply

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