Cracker by Damian Christie

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Cracker: ALTered States

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  • Andrew Paul Wood,

    Doesn't that sort of thing usually result in Greenpeace parking in your harbour, blocking and boarding your ships (which is technically piracy in my book, if not terrorism) and generally making a nusance of themselves wasting police resources?

    Christchurch • Since Jan 2007 • 175 posts Report Reply

  • andrew llewellyn,

    Only if we get the coal to china on a whaling ship.

    I'd never suggest that of course.

    Since Nov 2006 • 2074 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    I'm thinking globally, acting locally. If a bunch of Chinese got together and did the same thing, there'd be one less aluminium smelter, and one less Huntly power station.

    Or maybe you are making no sacrifices and blaming AGW on Chinese indifference, it so hard to tell.

    Your argument is that Aramoana smelter should have been built because it will stop the beach going underwater? That's an interesting line to take.

    Actually my argument is more like - efficient smelters built in places where they can utilise close by green power sources are the best possible way to minimise AGW from aluminium production. So if building a smelter at Aramoana is what it takes to prevent the flooding of Mission Bay, it is a sacrafice I am willing to make.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Hosking,

    I think Solid Energy is already onto that one, Andrew.

    Don't know if anyone noticed, in the rail announcement this week, that one of the upgrades being planned is the West Coast to Lyttleton link, so it can take heavier loads of coal.

    South Roseneath • Since Nov 2006 • 805 posts Report Reply

  • Nick D'Angelo,

    You're right, it makes no sense. We should clearly be imposing a border carbon tax on imports from polluter nations.

    As the European Union, led by France, is considering.

    Oh, you mean an excuse to bring back __tarrifs __to protect local producers? Who's going to decide the formula* to decide who is a polluter/carbon criminal? There are plenty of UK mums who think our lamb in their supermarket chillers is a carbon crime.

    *That should keep the UN busy for a few years. Kyoto3 anyone?

    Simon Laan • Since May 2008 • 157 posts Report Reply

  • dubmugga,

    ooooh can i be a kyoto rep for NZ > Free junket trips for a lost cause and to reduce my carbon footprint I'll only wear hemp clothing and bring back one PS3.

    the back of your mind • Since Nov 2006 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Actually my argument is more like - efficient smelters built in places where they can utilise close by green power sources are the best possible way to minimise AGW from aluminium production.

    No the best way to minimise the effects of aluminium production is to demand less aluminium in the market which will lead to less smelters producing it.

    So if building a smelter at Aramoana is what it takes to prevent the flooding of Mission Bay, it is a sacrafice I am willing to make.

    Which it clearly won't do.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6208 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Eco-City developments need to be brown-field, reshaping existing urban spaces not destroying vital natural habitat.

    At the rate at which a city like Shanghai is growing that habitat you talk of would have been consumed within a year or two anyway. Isn't it better that it, and the other two similar projects further inland are done this way.

    The urban growth in these places is mind boggling..take Shenzhen, thirty years back it didn't exist. Now 9 million call it home.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3208 posts Report Reply

  • dubmugga,

    I've always wanted to build an eco city of the future at omarama/twizel...

    ..its got sun, wind, water, mountains and lots of flatland that isnt really a natural habitat for anything worth saving. Could easily put a few million people up there and plan to survive a nuclear winter even.

    the back of your mind • Since Nov 2006 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Looks like we won't need to border carbon tax the US, since even their Republican presidential candidate is talking immediate cap and trade.

    Nick: I think the EU will make up their own mind. But it gives us a very strong incentive to keep them happy with our environmental policy, because their protectionists would love an opportunity to stick it to New Zealand farmers.

    (And if those farmers had any brains at all, they'd be lining up to pay for their carbon precisely to avoid that outcome)

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1661 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    (And if those farmers had any brains at all, they'd be lining up to pay for their carbon precisely to avoid that outcome)

    God yes. I cannot fathom the disdain the FF leadership seem to have for the beliefs of their customers. To them their client base are a bunch of hapless townies who live from one state handout to the next.

    However, though they might not like their clients it would surely be a no-brainer to pander to them. The sad thing is that many farmers are reasonably environmentally conscious but they are embarrassed to admit it to their peers or force a change in thinking at the top.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1616 posts Report Reply

  • Jose Barbosa,

    RE: Alt TV

    Leaving Naked News (I should point out that at bFM we've been reading our news naked for years) and the technical problems with Driver's show aside:

    At least Driver and Bomber have given it a good whack and I watch it because I can't remember the last time someone on TV has been able to interview one person for half an hour. They've at least got to be given some kudos for trying to get away from the soundbite mentality of TV current affairs.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 64 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    No the best way to minimise the effects of aluminium production is to demand less aluminium in the market which will lead to less smelters producing it.

    Yes, exactly. And the way to do this is to tax consumption. Which we can do, because we have complete control of taxation in the New Zealand consumer market. This is the only thing the NZ government controls, but we avoid using this control to help save the planet.

    What we shouldn't do is what we are attempting to do and tax production. It will not work, because we can never control the world market. Our attempt so far through the Kyoto protocols resulted in a decade long 21% increase in AGW gas emissions.

    The reason we will probably continue to accelerate our killing the planet in this manner is that a tax production allows our government to blame some minority of producers and pander to our wasteful consumers.

    God yes. I cannot fathom the disdain the FF leadership seem to have for the beliefs of their customers.

    The milk powder Fontera produces is used amoung other things to supplement infant formula in the third world. Our government wishes to impose a tax on this selling to mothers in the third world.

    To them their client base are a bunch of hapless townies who live from one state handout to the next.

    Us townies are, we do. The reason the world is experiencing AGW is the wastefulness of 1st world consumer society. To this our government responds by "handing out" a tax holiday on petrol consumption for 3 years, because taxing planet killing consumption might upset our consumers.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • andrew llewellyn,

    BTW - Naked Newsreader girl commands (or asks) quite some hourly rate for private readings.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4549806a10.html

    Since Nov 2006 • 2074 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Yes, exactly. And the way to do this is to tax consumption. Which we can do, because we have complete control of taxation in the New Zealand consumer market. This is the only thing the NZ government controls, but we avoid using this control to help save the planet.

    That's not the only thing we control. We control the incredibly cushy deal that Tiwai Smelter gets.

    Neither method has any control over the rest of the world. The aluminium from Tiwai goes to Japan, and we have no control over that consumer market.

    That doesn't mean we should ignore the producers completely. We can't control what other countries do in their part of the world, but we can at least take some ethical responsibility for what takes place in NZ. If smelters stopped getting such great deals from countries, the price of the finished product would go up, and there'd be less demand.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6208 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Kyle,

    Prices have doubled over the past five years, whilst supply has increased less so over the same period. The market is demand driven.

    Plus there is the marginal advantage in carbon efficiency Tiwai has over other smelters, which I still do think is important enough to make Tiwai one of the last (5% of) smelters that should be eliminated. I see no value in shutting down one of the more carbon efficient producers of aluminium.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

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