Hard News by Russell Brown

Read Post

Hard News: So far from trivial

1095 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 40 41 42 43 44 Newer→ Last

  • robbery,

    Not OK means Not OK. You're the one who isn't getting that.

    It's kind of like the unpatriotic argument though. if you're american you can discuss issues of american politics without being unpatriotic but that doesn't stop people from throwing a "you hate america" into a discussion in an attempt to divert it. I've said many many comments to the effect of its not ok, clearly stating my position and even why (personal experience) , but that doesn't stop someone calling heretic every time I or anyone else discuss a point varying from the "veitch is monster" angle. if we accept that as read then you can discuss the whole celebrity, media, news, sources, truth, manipulation angles, wider implications of violence in nz, how we like to pigeon hole issues, let of steam and forget them etc. if not then you can stick to repetition as mentioned by WH.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Read the Raybon Kan piece, Rob - does a great job of unpacking what Veitch has said so far and outlines how far away from taking responsibility it is. Until we hear him clearly acknowledge that he harmed her, it's all just smoke. I'm happy to leave it to a court process (agree with you on that now that we know there may be one), but there is well-funded deliberate spin going on in the meantime.

    Said many times upthread so not going to repeat the detail, but denial is common for perpetrators of family violence, so please don't go acting all surprised when people react to hearing the same arguments out of your mouth.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16491 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    if you're american you can discuss issues of american politics without being unpatriotic but that doesn't stop people from throwing a "you hate america" into a discussion in an attempt to divert it.

    That comparison is not at all apt. I really resent this lameassed (sorry Jackie!) implication you keep making that you're so nuanced and reasonable and the rest of us are just baying jackals, when we spend all this time discussing these things at length, with qualifications, and nuance, and avoidance of emotive language, and so on and so on ad freaking nauseam. You know what? If you think that we're doing the 'why do you hate America?' thing, because we're such incapable-of-complexity witch-hunting morons, you can just... [REDACTED]. Because you're totally, totally wrong.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3628 posts Report Reply

  • Julie Fairey,

    Yeah I haven't seen much "Veitch is a monster" angling going on. I've seen a lot of concern that he isn't actually taking responsibility for what he's done, and there are a lot of people like Holmes helping him with maintaining that position. I'm not sure how calling Veitch on that, and in particular on the bits of his statements to the media that don't match up with what is slowly congealing into a likely scenario of what happened.

    Ultimately it's to his own detriment - a key part of rehabilitation is understanding what you did, taking responsibility for it, and learning about the bits of you that need to change so you don't do it again. It's been said before, here and elsewhere, but Robbery you seem to keep missing the bit where the commenters who are appalled at Veitch's lack of sincere remorse point that out (showing they do believe in redemption).

    As for Wellington owing Dunedin for Anna, I agree Kyle. And there goes The Hand Mirror's token South Islander ;-)

    Orcland • Since Dec 2007 • 216 posts Report Reply

  • andrew llewellyn,

    I've seen a lot of concern that he isn't actually taking responsibility for what he's done,

    Heh, even Diana Wichtel took him to task on this count in her Listener TV review.

    Since Nov 2006 • 2073 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Until we hear him clearly acknowledge that he harmed her, it's all just smoke.

    that's one good point

    I'm happy to leave it to a court process (agree with you on that now that we know there may be one), but there is well-funded deliberate spin going on in the meantime.

    that's 2 good points,

    Said many times upthread so not going to repeat the detail, but denial is common for perpetrators of family violence,

    so what are you saying here, I'm hurting people in my family? I'm violent? I participate in family violence? my loving partner and siblings will be interested to hear that.

    so please don't go acting all surprised when people react to hearing the same arguments out of your mouth.

    well its not just me, and I've forwarded lots of different arguments, none of which have vindicated veitch. I think that's the point WH made. We can take it as read that violence in society is not something anyone wants, if only for the selfish reason that we don't want it turned on us.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    but Robbery you seem to keep missing the bit where the commenters who are appalled at Veitch's lack of sincere remorse point that out (showing they do believe in redemption).

    no I'm reading that, but i think veitch is the least interesting part of the incident. he's a sports reader who had his statement written for him by lawyers and a crusty old media man. his actual words are irrelevant in a way. its not like he's actually saying any of them, they appear to be scripted.

    That they are scripted is an interesting bit, and we're not going to get to see how sorry he is until all of that stops, which is why I don't dwell on it, and won't until that dust has settled. he's still a talking head at this stage.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    and so on and so on ad freaking nauseam.

    :) what'd I say?
    come on D, can't we all just get along, lets be friends.

    to be honest I wasn't even thinking of you. I was chatting with sasha, in my mind you're the wedding dress thread

    ps you should break up your posts into multiple points over consecutive posts. the count goes on individual posts not length. 2000 here we come.

    continue

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Rob, you have split a complete sentence into two parts and then reacted to each part seperately. Go and read it again, and stop wasting my time.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16491 posts Report Reply

  • Julie Fairey,

    Veitch is the "least interesting part of the incident"? WTF? I'm sorry, I just don't get that at all.

    Orcland • Since Dec 2007 • 216 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Veitch is the "least interesting part of the incident"? WTF? I'm sorry, I just don't get that at all.

    in that the individual that is tony veitch alone is a small part of the bigger picture.
    that would be celebrity, media, the wider context of violence in new zealand that doesn't have a celebrity at its focus,

    That an incident of domestic violence happened in new zealand isn't unusual, we have a lot of it most of which sadly isn't considered news worth or worth the general public's time to contemplate.
    what is unusual is it was a celebrity,
    the public reaction to that,
    the media's response to it,
    what is printed as news,
    etc etc.

    what we as a society do after the veitch incident dies down will be more telling. I'm betting not much, as whatever veitch "bought to justice" will be it will most likely be seen as job well done, we've solved domestic violence, carry on.

    I'm saying this slightly desentisied by watching the harrowing taxi to the dark side doco re the institutionalised violence that lead to torture and murder in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    you have split a complete sentence into two parts

    which bit?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    Not OK means Not OK. You're the one who isn't getting that.

    One of us is confused about who is not getting what.

    Since Nov 2006 • 559 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    WHatever.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16491 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    and stop wasting my time.

    but you've obviously got time on your hands, I thought I was doing you a favour, helping you pass the time.

    and reading your one sentence in its whole it could easily be read to mean exactly what I said in 2 parts.

    but denial is common for perpetrators of family violence, so please don't go acting all surprised when people react to hearing the same arguments out of your mouth.

    ie what comes out of my mouth sounds like what comes out of the mouths of perpetrators of family violence.

    I also asked you to clarify what you meant because it was ambiguous and I certainly wouldn't want to misrepresent your meaning, which is why I started my sentence with "so what are you saying here"?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Art and my life,

    I was talking to some one who works for a counselling phoneline today and she said they've had heaps of calls from women for whom this Vietch thing has been very "triggering". People are deeply affected when this stuff is in the news but you don't hear from them on forums like this so much. Personally I am pleased a formal complaint has been made. I hope justice takes its course but I'm not holding my breath

    Since May 2008 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I was talking to some one who works for a counselling phoneline today and she said they've had heaps of calls from women for whom this Vietch thing has been very "triggering". People are deeply affected when this stuff is in the news but you don't hear from them on forums like this so much.

    Actually, if you look back (and I really don't expect you to) there has been a bit of "triggering" here too. I'm very aware that this thread has carried an emotional charge that most don't.

    Personally I am pleased a formal complaint has been made. I hope justice takes its course but I'm not holding my breath

    Just it going to court passes the "justice takes its course" for me.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18711 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    but you've obviously got time on your hands, I thought I was doing you a favour, helping you pass the time.

    Rob, could you possibly look for a middle ground between needling other participants and having a persecution complex?

    Arrggh ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18711 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Don't know if this is a result of the Veitch thing or not, but over the last few weeks people at my current place of employment (which shall remain nameless) have been coming out with stories of violence between partners, parents and children which would make your blood run cold. One coworker spoke to me for a full twenty minutes at lunch, after which I had to take a sit down just to try and get my head straight again. I mean, faaark.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1550 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    I'm very aware that this thread has carried an emotional charge that most don't.

    Yes. I'm not quite sure why I was so enraged by this case. Tears pouring down face enraged, actually. And I've never been abused in a relationship. So I can only imagine how those amongst us who have survived such domestic arrangements must be feeling.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3123 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    I'm not quite sure why I was so enraged by this case

    My guess is that it was due to the public statements of regret afterwards that seemed so devoid of any … regret.


    Well that’s the bit that got me anyway.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Rob, could you possibly look for a middle ground between needling other participants and having a persecution complex?

    sure, if you can try and read an element of good natured humor into at least some of my posts. I've been pretty forgiving about some fairly dubious comments in my direction don't you think. I haven't seen you jumping in then (nor do I expect you to, not your job).

    nobody can be as highly strung as you're reading me, therefore it is reasonable to assume i'm not.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis,

    My guess is that it was due to the public statements of regret afterwards that seemed so devoid of any … regret.

    Well that’s the bit that got me anyway.

    ditto. We even expect teenagers to own up to what they have done to all those affected at restorative meetings in schools.

    We don't let them get away with walking sideways around what they did and kicking things off with "but...". So it's not unfair to expect a grown adult to own up unconditionally.

    But I have faith that the court system will do it's job in this case. It better or things could really blow the f up.

    Since Nov 2006 • 866 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Rob, I find myself reading you as autistic by now, which is why I've probably been more forgiving than I would usually be. I just don't have the patience to go through every word time and time again in the hope that it has sunk in this time. Not sure about how Russell sees you.

    Anyway, my patience is over. Learn how to have a reasonable conversation with some logic and some feeling and we'll be OK. Persist in not paying attention to what other people are saying and you will be better off finding somewhere else to parade your ignorance.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16491 posts Report Reply

  • Art and my life,

    Just it going to court passes the "justice takes its course" for me.

    I agree but it hasn't got there yet...

    I have been watching this thread and the whole issue has been "triggering" for me. I think Vietch not appearing to take responsibility has been one of the worst parts (few offenders of this type do) and the excuses....well to me its never ok.

    I have actually unsubscribed to a few blogs over their coverage of this.

    Since May 2008 • 10 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 40 41 42 43 44 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.