Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: So far from trivial

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  • LegBreak,

    So then, is it not OK to point out that Veitch is short?

    Because quite a few people have done that, even on here I think.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    men, women, owner, contributor, consumer, etc

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Giovanni, I guess I'm saying nothing happens in a vacuum and the context always includes power dimensions like gender and corporate control.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Different words for men and women - an old analysis, but a goody. I have a couple of post up about it on my blog.

    Here's Dale Spender's analysis

    and here's the research she based her analysis on, by Julia P Stanley.

    No apologies for linking to my own blog - this is directly relevant to the discussion.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1323 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    That's certainly how I read what Russell said at the time. However, there are always broader power relationships involved despite intent or outcome, and Russell is no more a passive participant in this forum than Lewis is in hers.

    I'm a very active participant: it's my house, basically. I'm responsible for it -- legally, financially, ethically -- and it takes quite a lot of time and emotional energy.

    Jill is free to take issue -- that's the point of a discussion -- but to come in and say that I exercised some undue "power" in that thread is objectionable.

    Anyway, I went and found the original exchange.

    It was Julie who thought the reference was from a deleted comment. I could have left it, but I thought I should point out it was me:

    __I'm assuming there has been some moderation here, as I can't seem to find the original irrelevant comment about someone's breasts? Good job that moderator!__

    Actually, that was me in the original post, referring to Lisa Lewis's breasts, them being the point of Alt TV's Naked Newsflash.

    To which Julie replied:

    Oops, my bad Russell, thanks for the correction. For once it was relevant to be talking about someone's boobs! :-) Although as I'm currently breast-feeding your assertion that they looked sore did rather pique my interest...

    I just can't square that with Jill's comment that "Russell is clearly striving to be one of the 'good guys' in terms of his views and words that we regularly see here," but implying that I'd given myself away and slapped down the person who challenged me. It's a tricky enough job running this place without being accused of that.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18991 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    men, women, owner, contributor, consumer, etc

    That's still mighty vague. Specifically, in this case, what's the interplay of those positions?

    Whereas cock, dickhead, bollocks, balls, etc are all compliments, right? Would it not be possible to consider, just for a minute, that it's the sexual element that makes 'cunt' a put-down, not the gender one?

    Agreed, although being a dick is not quite as bad as being a cunt, is it? And screwing somebody means getting your way, whereas getting screwed quite the opposite.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7386 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    And screwing somebody means getting your way, whereas getting screwed quite the opposite.

    giovanni, that sounds like you're implying that women get screwed, and men screw. That women are passive sexually. That's not really an idea I can get on board with. In a lesbian relationship, who's doing the screwing.

    although being a dick is not quite as bad as being a cunt

    Agreed. Being a pussy isn't as bad as being a cunt, either.

    Once again, discourse doing wonders for Russell's google hits...

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4369 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Giovanni, sorry for starting something when I have to leave for a while, but I'm confident that others can answer that.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And that they have started doing so already, should I say...

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And Russell I respect your position and want to reassure you that I'm not having a go.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    giovanni, that sounds like you're implying that women get screwed, and men screw. That women are passive sexually. That's not really an idea I can get on board with. In a lesbian relationship, who's doing the screwing.

    Actually, I have to say that the coarsest conversation I've had all year was with a fiftysomething lesbian about getting a "wide on". I think i blushed a little :-)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18991 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And Russell I respect your position and want to reassure you that I'm not having a go.

    Of course. And we've already seen a few times that this is a thread where emotions might be heightened. If Jill's still here, I'm not actually having a go at her: just objecting on my own behalf.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18991 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    giovanni, that sounds like you're implying that women get screwed, and men screw. That women are passive sexually. That's not really an idea I can get on board with. In a lesbian relationship, who's doing the screwing.

    We can try to subvert it, I'm all for it, but even in homosexual relationships the active participant is sometimes referred to as the male (witness that wonderful exchange in The Torch Song Trilogy - "What do you do?" (by which he meant what's you job or occupation) "I'm the Woman").

    To add to the Dale Spender argument, there are those who believe that homophobia (applied to gay males) is really an extension of mysoginy and that they are both a form of loathing of the passive sexual position. And again I am referring to the crude, traditional way of conceiving the heterosexual male as being the active participant and reducing sex as penetration by the penis. The person I heard make the argument (Piergiorgio Paterlini) pointed out that in spite of centuries of homophobia "fucking somebody in the ass" still means something positive, ie getting your own way.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7386 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Once again, discourse doing wonders for Russell's google hits...

    You got it. I had to go and check, and the number of people finding us on pr0n searches actually seems to have fallen away -- although the "Hard" in Hard News will always haul in a few.

    My favourite search term for this month is: "plastic travel bong"

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18991 posts Report Reply

  • Jill Reade,

    You have every right here to take issue with that, but I really do find your characterisation of it, and particularly the assumption that I'd exercised some undue power in simply clarifying the context, both extreme and unfair.

    .


    I don't think you were deliberately exercising any power at all . I would not have credited you with being one of the "good guys" if I thought otherwise. I think it is effectively there none the less.

    To me the piece read that it was an embarrassing program because she had very limited news reading skills (fine) and any way her breasts are ugly (not fine by me). I have no problem with the observation that as a news program it is dire and that if the appearance of the reader is not to your taste then there will be no reason for watching it. That is different from very personal comments.

    The whole program does reinforce that thing of what you look like is more important than what you do. The reader might not be doing suff that everybody respects but she still deserves to be treated with respect.

    Since Jun 2007 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Jill Reade,

    Still there. Just take forever to get my thoughts in line and I do have to go soon. . I'm really not trying to have a go at you either. This is something we are all in together. I don't think any of us are perfect but if we want a way out we have to really be prepared to look at the hard stuff. This comment of yours is a very small subset of other thinking that is really good and to that extent is unfair to focus on.

    Since Jun 2007 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    they are both a form of loathing of the passive sexual position

    I guess that goes back to Roman practice, where age gender and social status combine to dictate what kind of sexual roles are allowable for a person.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4369 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    the number of people finding us on pr0n searches actually seems to have fallen away

    I'll get right on that.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4369 posts Report Reply

  • Jill Reade,

    Emma, I don't have time to follow Deborah's link so don't know if I will contradict it. What I was taught was that someone had actually done a count on this stuff. I think you are right about there being an aspect of just sexuality in it. But the fact that the crunch point of the relationship between men and women becomes a point of abuse also is interesting in itself I think.

    Since Jun 2007 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • st ephen,

    Agreed. Being a pussy isn't as bad as being a cunt, either.

    Emma - just in case you find yourself picking a fight with some Mongrel Mob-type one day... Pussy is worse than cunt.
    The latter works as a term of endearment, eg. someone has drunk all your beer and borrowed your car but you can't help admiring their audacity. The former can only be interpreted as a direct challenge to one's masculinity.
    Please be careful out there... :-)

    dunedin • Since Jul 2008 • 204 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Pussy is worse than cunt.

    That possibly depends on who you're talking to. I still find the latter word so offensive that I can't bring myself to type it.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1323 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    The reader might not be doing suff that everybody respects but she still deserves to be treated with respect.

    She's screaming for us to look at her breasts. Are we (men, women and children) not allowed to say what we think of said breasts? How would that be respectful and not, say, patronising or prudish?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7386 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I still find the latter word so offensive that I can't bring myself to type it.

    Out of (perhaps limited) interest, being that thing that you cannot type in Italian simply means you're a good looking woman. It's even been made masculine (figo, as opposed to figa) to mean a good-looking man. And you can use either in pretty much in any sort of company (okay, perhaps not the Pope).

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7386 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Pussy is worse than cunt.

    That possibly depends on who you're talking to.

    Indeed. I have an English friend who finds 'twat' much more offensive than either of those, while I find just the sound of the word sort of silly and amusing.

    Emma - just in case you find yourself picking a fight with some Mongrel Mob-type one day... Pussy is worse than cunt.

    61s down my way, dude. Suffice it to say I've done my fair share of time in gang houses. I've heard both used jokingly, affectionately, and both used offensively. The tone and circumstance seems to matter more than the word.

    I think you are right about there being an aspect of just sexuality in it.

    Thinking on this harder, I think it's not so much sexuality in and of itself, but sexuality (natural, enjoyable) portrayed as something dirty, degrading and disgusting.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4369 posts Report Reply

  • Jill Reade,

    She's screaming for us to look at her breasts. Are we (men, women and children) not allowed to say what we think of said breasts? How would that be respectful and not, say, patronising or prudish?

    Well, revolutionary though it might be we could just accept that we all have these bits that work in both wonderful and functional ways and get over it and not denigrate or elevate each other on the basis of what we look like instead of how we behave and what we are. But hey that would be detroying whole industries and we would have to find other ways of making ourselves feel better rather than puting somebody else down. Tony Vietch up to now has had lots of money and kudos that he wouldn't have had despite however much hard work if he didn't have the appearance. But it turns out to be just an appearance doesn't it. Even Holmes said so.

    Since Jun 2007 • 20 posts Report Reply

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