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Speaker: Copyright Must Change

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  • Andrew Dubber,

    The non-commercial use one is quite a thorny one. Case in point - I've been approached by the marketing department of the university I work for. They have announced that they would like to republish the work of their blogging academics on a site specifically designed to recruit students.

    The blogging that I do - like that of my colleagues - is personal, on my own time, and although on a related topic to my area as an academic, not part of my salaried work.

    Grey area, I suppose...

    New Music Strategies is under an Attribution, Non-Commercial licence. As the author I can, of course, grant permission - but the question is whether the use of the work as a marketing tool to bring revenue and students (considered 'clients' these days) to the institution classifies as commercial use under the rules.

    Saw Lessig speak in London once. Really engaging presentation style.

    On a related note, I was on a panel at a music industry conference here in the UK yesterday. The topic was Copyright and IP.

    I mentioned that I was in favour of copyright reform, and explained that the problem stems largely from the fact that the rules we have do not work in the current media environment. Unfortunately, what the delegates heard was "I think that you should not be allowed to make money, and furthermore, I wish to boil your children and dismember your pets."

    Several of the delegates (typically, those from record companies) indicated that they had never even encountered the idea of copyright reform, and certainly had never heard anything quite so preposterous in all their lives.

    Meanwhile, in Belfast, at another music industry event I'd had to decline to attend, Feargal Sharkey (who is now heading a massive UK pan-music-industry über lobbying organisation) announced that he is strongly in favour of copyright extension to 95+ years.

    And he's going to get it - despite the Gower Report.

    Birmingham, UK • Since Nov 2006 • 17 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    This site purports that Lessig himself, who is the "father" of the Creative Commons, believes that the interpretation I posited above about sites with ads is "the best reading". With the caveat that some advertising regimes likely go to far, and also that until a judge decides it's a little grey. However, one would imagine that Lessig's words would carry an enormous amount of weight in aiding the courts in their interpretation of the licence.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3908 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Bloody good site, Andrew. Thanks for dropping by.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Dismembering their pets - now there's a notion I haven't considered before. Hmmmmm....

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Unfortunately, what the delegates heard was "I think that you should not be allowed to make money, and furthermore, I wish to boil your children and dismember your pets."

    Sounds roughly like what I encountered in the other copyright thread, which was why I gave up. When you're being attacked for a position you don't hold (ie: having to defend what amounted to charges of being an abolitionist, when that's not my view), there's no point sticking around.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3908 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    In general it seems like blacksmiths digging in to defend the horseshoe market rather than shifting their valuable skills into car manufacturing and owning more of that new territory. Knowing your way round an anvil just aint enough anymore.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • James Harton,

    FYI, here's Chris Barton's take on Lessig's talk over on the Herald:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-election-2008/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502734&objectid=10541340&pnum=0

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 51 posts Report Reply

  • Anarchangel,

    “George Bush and Tony Blair, ostensibly singing to each other, overlayed to...”

    I was disappointed that this sentence didn’t end “...Electric 6’s <a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTzs9G-VOZ4”>Gay Bar</a>


    (There is at least one copy of "Bush Blair Endless Love" on Youtube for the searching if anyone feels so inclined.)

    Since Sep 2007 • 8 posts Report Reply

  • James Harton,

    That actually helps clarify my thoughts on how to approach it sitewide.

    Russell, I wistfully remember the halcyon days before copyright was to become an issue for "Joe the Plumber". I remember you emailing copies of the Hard News for posting on my BBS and thus off to fidonet. We never had to discuss the copyright or distribution terms, although for all we new the hard news could have been reprinted every week in Equador.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 51 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Ackroyd,

    Treating creative expression as criminal, argued Lessig, is "corrosive", because it raises children in an environment where breaking the law is normalised.

    My 8 year old son now thinks if you spell "BluTak" "Blue Tak" you'll get arrested, following a parental discussion about the © and ™ symbols.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 155 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Unfortunately, what the delegates heard was "I think that you should not be allowed to make money, and furthermore, I wish to boil your children and dismember your pets."

    perhaps as an educated wordsmith you should have chosen your words better to communicate exactly what you were meaning as "one of the UK’s leading experts in the field". Its easy to blame the listener for the faults in your delivery.

    if you meant something different then perhaps you should have said it a different way.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Hahahahahaha. Priceless.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Am liking the fact the Matthew's post is taking a different angle from the other copyright thread. If we could continue this thread as less about advocating the traditional model (perhaps Music Industry model is a more relevant description which I think the other thread does quite a bit), though feel free to detail specific points against the less traditional (Lessig type approach) using the traditional model, I would be happy/appreciative....(not wanting to re-cover the ground that (may) have been covered there extensively...rather than feeding my meglomania).

    Good post Matthew. chur!

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 460 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Oooh, Jon you used the "i" word.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And I'd quite like this thread to be a response to Lessig, thanks.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    My thoughts exactly....I wonder exactly how many threads we've had about this over the past couple of years. I'm out of this one.

    well, ..... the same people who have had their lame arguments refuted in other threads truck out their "but were so socially conscious" bollocks and say things like (... where do I start......)

    Treating creative expression as criminal,

    what does that even mean? are you saying downloading is creative expression? Why can't you buy it like you do every other product that costs money to make?.
    are you saying sampling and mash ups are personal expression? there's no law against that, its only when you take it into the public forum or try and sell it there are complications. you can "create" to your hearts content in the privacy of your own home, show your friends. knock yourselves out, broadcast it in public or benefit from it and things change.

    because it raises children in an environment where breaking the law is normalised

    this is true, unhealthy, here's a crazy idea, teach your children to respect other peoples work, respect laws and act accordingly, too hard?, are you going to lobby to change the law when they get off their nuts and attempt to drive wasted?

    if the biggest leap forward in creativity is mash ups and remixing then we've already reached stagnation. lets give up on this thing called art all together. it sounds completely boring if thats all we have to look forward to.

    If Mr Lessig's primary motive is to free up the copyright laws so people can freely flood us with crappy remixes and the dubious skill of playing 2 songs over each other...... and for this he's wanting to strip creators of control and reward for their efforts???
    talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.
    his examples are extremes quoted as common place. terrorist comments, $218 moives with $400000 sound tracks (we'd all need to know more about the actual usage here to comment properly on it but don't let that stop you using it as an example of the evils of media ownership),

    His sentiments would ring so much truer if he was fighting for the right to freely distribute his own work (which correct me if I'm wrong but even if he was a high profile artists he can do anytime he wants too)
    But no, he's fighting for the right to freely fuck with other people's work, so he's more a bored, smooth talking lawyer with no greater task he can apply himself to like, oh I don't know, stopping corporate crime, or world banking evils, shit, take your pick, there's plenty of things that could benefit society more than letting home recordists inflict their half assed "can't think of my own ideas and don't want to spend my beer money on recording them so I'll fill in the gaps with other people's work" mash ups and sampling folly.

    If change had happened 10 or 15 years ago, file-sharing could've made musicians millions. Instead, they've seen not a cent.

    really? do explain your pyramid 'how to get rich by giving your stuff away scheme', let me guess, does it have something to do with t-shirts, product placement/mention, or advertising? yehaah, can't wait for that, cos that's just what I need in my life is more adverts.
    this miracle model of business just doesn't seem to be getting here does it, and if it did I think it would probably have to be the complete re invention of how humans create income and do business. That's a big ask for the media industry to come up with after how ever many years of making shit and selling it, but no, please enlighten.

    Carrying on as we are is not an option.

    jeez, you make it sound like it's one of the greatest problems facing human kind, right up there with the iraq war, world hunger and various mafias.
    Is paying for media really that much of an insult to everyone?

    Flickr, YouTube, and others, are examples of the potentially enormous revenue that's attached to the new expression.

    pyramid scheme, guy at the top makes money, contributors, not a cent. no added value for you, just a trick to make your ability work for someone else. its fun for amateurs who have day jobs.

    It doesn't encourage, in fact actively discourages, new expressions.

    really? are you going to blame copyright for stealing your lunch money too?
    copyright restricts use of existing works.

    it doesn't stop anyone from creating new expressions all on their own. it doesn't stop anyone from extrapolating ideas into new forms, it doesn't stop you learning an instrument (or not), inventing an instrument, coming up with new ways to play old things, and a million other creative ways to participate in the world of expression, but to read your line you paint it like it's the end of times, like the only thing worth doing in the creative world is to fuck with already existing works, what a sad and boring future you paint.

    and entire generations will continue to willingly, egregiously flout the law. That really is missing the point of copyright.

    and society loses the ability to think of others in their actions, out for what they can take unless someone stops them. wow, we really are developing into a higher more caring life form we can all be proud of,

    hey I've got a great idea, lets remove all the laws that inconvenience us, that'll solve everything.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    lame arguments refuted

    It just gets better..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Yup
    And the total lack of self-awareness is beyond bizarre.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    It just gets better..

    come on sasha, you know you love it :)
    nice to see you only got to the first line before you passed judgment.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Its easy to blame the listener for the faults in your delivery.

    Hilarious.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Yup.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Rob, you can't even spell my name right when it's right there beside every post I write. Talk about lack of ability to listen..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Doofus

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    can't even spell my name right

    true, that, but that's the least of my typing worries. its the missing consonants that worry me the most.

    Doofus

    ???? ....ignore name calling,

    Hilarious

    speaking to a room full of people who work in the complex field of the topic he's talking on ie people who know more about and have more experience than the screeds of bedroom experts around here and he manages to get that reaction? if those guys can't understand his message and he's saying his message isn't what they thought it was and then tried to infer they were mis construing him, in some way they were thick shits, I'm just saying there may be better ways of putting it cos if people who work in the field aren't getting his message of simple enlightenment (hallelujah) what hope does the average musician, director, producer etc have of understanding it.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Rob, it's listening - not typing - that is your problem. Slow down and think before you write.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16680 posts Report Reply

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