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Speaker: What Diversity Dividend?

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  • giovanni tiso,

    Italians. I don't trust Italians. And Catholics - which most Italians are. Nothing in the points system allows us to leave them out. We should have a national conversation about that.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7351 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I suspect that if you asked most New Zealanders are more than happy with migration from the white Anglosphere. If that is the case, we need to discuss that. Because if that is what the majority want, then so be it.

    Wait, we should have a democratic discussion about having a 'white nation'? Sounds lovely.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6162 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Wait, we should have a democratic discussion about having a 'white nation'?

    As I'm sure you know, we had a White New Zealand policy 100 or so years ago. Waz not so grate, aksually.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3628 posts Report Reply

  • Kerry Weston,

    I think you're quite wrong. Brasch and Fairburn et al did, and were shaped by, their OE in the 1930s. Before that, Mansfield left and didn't come back back, but Maori chiefs were doing their OE to Britain 150 years ago.

    Yes, but they were exceptional. Brasch & Mansfield came from old money, as did Frances Hodgkins - they had money and family networks/contacts to enable their travel. Few working class members travelled. Some of the more impecunious authors & artisits were able to travel with either formal or informal support - travel bursaries & scholarships, supportive networks. Some very determined impecunious kiwis left & usually didn't return.

    I think all these views are true - including Tom's. I can't think of any British migrants I've met who don't scoff at "how we give it all away to the Maoris" and no longer feel at home in the UK. Someone I knew who was a high-ranking kiwi bureaucrat spent a decade working in the UK and on return was full of dire warnings about NZ "heading the same way" with regard to immigration. You might not like their opinions, but they are also part of the conversation.

    Even supposedly multicultural Aussie has had race attacks recently, directed at Indian students i think. Some of these attacks are by Lebanese and I note a comment on the link that the Syrians hate the Lebanese, so they should 'deal to them'. It's not simply a matter of being "racist".
    Indians attacked

    Manawatu • Since Jan 2008 • 494 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Italians. I don't trust Italians. And Catholics - which most Italians are. Nothing in the points system allows us to leave them out. We should have a national conversation about that.

    Well those dreadful chattering classes seem overly fond of things Italian, which is probably a big negative.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 3370 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Someone I knew who was a high-ranking kiwi bureaucrat spent a decade working in the UK and on return was full of dire warnings about NZ "heading the same way" with regard to immigration.

    As Britain goes, so we go. Or should, eh? Personally I'm inclined to dismiss much of the tendency to dire punditry by returning kiwis as a symptom of culture shock. I remember a pair of returnees in the early 80s warning of the horrors of Thatcherism that they'd witnessed. Muldoon, they claimed, would now be emboldened to implement the same policies. Their solution? Vote Labour.

    Then there was the boss of Stiff Records who made a brief visit at the end of the 70s, with the message that what culturally deprived NZ needed was a big influx of West Indians. I rather doubt that he'd have recognised a Polynesian if he'd met one.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 3370 posts Report Reply

  • Kerry Weston,

    Their solution? Vote Labour.

    Yeah, a lot of us made that mistake.

    what culturally deprived NZ needed was a big influx of West Indians.

    Guess he never went up the East Cape, then. plenty of hybrid Rastamen up that way.

    I think one of the reasons many people in NZ fear immigrants is because we're still reeling from the changes since 1984. The bottom half paid the highest price and feel powerless to influence politics - that their vote counts for bugger all anyway, because successive govts push through the same agenda regardless. People get very protective over what they have left. The anger surfaces when the opportunity arises - the truckies protest, s. 59, foreshore & seabed. The nation built on 'a fair go' doesn't feel like it's had a fair go for a very long time.

    Manawatu • Since Jan 2008 • 494 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Speaking of diversity, I wonder if any PASers would be up for dindins one night (here in Auckland, obviously - sorry rest of NZ - that's not my dept). I find everyone here so interesting and it would lovely to have a bit of a get together. Just a thought.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    because successive govts push through the same agenda regardless. People get very protective over what they have left. The anger surfaces when the opportunity arises - the truckies protest, s. 59, foreshore & seabed. The nation built on 'a fair go' doesn't feel like it's had a fair go for a very long time

    Yeah but nothing wrong with appreciating any govt who is doing a good job for the people, of which I would be the first to acknowledge. Trouble for me is that I am still looking for the benefits of having this one, so I watch with interest to see how we fare with Auckland's rearrangement. I don't think they're all the same.I think the portrayal of the trucking lobby protest was slick relations, s 59 and fore shore and seabed were emotive for select groups.They get media attention so sound big, but if that is all we have to worry about, I am glad. I 'll say happily, bring back Labour. I think they put the country in a good stead.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 5993 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    As long as dindins means food and not some kind of musical byo. :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16476 posts Report Reply

  • 81stcolumn,

    I can't think of any British migrants I've met who don't scoff at "how we give it all away to the Maoris" and no longer feel at home in the UK.

    Am I allowed to be offended yet ?

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 722 posts Report Reply

  • dc_red,

    Now in Canada's large cities it's somewhat amusing to hear people speaking English. Fourth generation Canadians are seen as an amusing relic.

    This is both untrue, and unamusing.

    English is the most-heard language in every large city except Montreal.

    I meet Canadians of every generation between 1 and about 10 every day. Including proud fourth generations.

    Oil Patch, Alberta • Since Nov 2006 • 706 posts Report Reply

  • dc_red,

    Except that a lot of the English loath the mass immigration, particularly the working class. You often here that they now feel strangers in their own land. I don't think we should repeat the mistakes of the Anglo-Canadians and the English and allow excessive immigration to wrest control of our destiny from ourselves.

    I call bullshit on this one, too. Leaving aside the fact that Canada was never purely "Anglo-Canadian" to start with, English is the first language in 6.6/10 homes. French accounts for another 2.1/10 homes.

    English is the first language of 80% or more of inhabitants in 8/10 Provinces, and 2/3 Territories. For Provinces, the exceptions are Quebec (80% French/10% English) and New Brunswick (69% English/30% French).

    Presumably you forgot about all the Quebecois, Acadiens and other French-speakers who can trace their ancestry in Canada back anywhere up to 400 years? As well as all the First Nations.

    Oil Patch, Alberta • Since Nov 2006 • 706 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Jackie, yes, me! (Next time I'm back, obviously.) I want to hear more of your tales from the kindy front-lines.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1410 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    from the kindy front-lines

    Oh noes! You wrote *kindy*!

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7351 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    <perplexed> What, they changed the language while I was away too? </perplexed>

    'Twas meant with respect and masses of nostalgia...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1410 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    <perplexed> What, they changed the language while I was away too? </perplexed>

    Don't ask me, once I wrote kindy and was severaly frowned at.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7351 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    allow excessive immigration to wrest control of our destiny from ourselves

    Actually, rereading this utter twaddle has inspired me to say: dude. You know that people have been saying almost precisely this in NZ (and Australia, and the USA, etc) for well over a century, right? Over and over and over again, you read this sentiment in contemporary newspapers and magazines and political speeches... it's just flat-out reactionary bollocks. If you read any of the literature on the history of immigration to societies like ours, the children of overseas-born parents 'assimilate' perfectly well into the dominant society (whatever that happens to be at the time). I think you both underestimate how hegemonic socialisation can be in a country as isolated as ours, and also overestimate the ability of groups of immigrants to undermine that hegemony and create something totally different. At 'worst', you wind up with people who can speak two languages and enjoy both Vegemite and halva (or whatever). It's just not that big a deal, surely?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3628 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Back when we didn't let in many brown folks, there was quite a degree of prejudice against Dutch immigrants. It was felt that they worked too hard.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18707 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    wrest control of our destiny from ourselves

    Comes down to who we think "ourselves" is, and whether we acknowledge it changes over time.

    enjoy both Vegemite and halva

    And a measure of progress might be knowing never to combine them.

    Having said which, our surge in migration over the last couple of decades was certainly not negotiated beforehand, so unresolved fear (and Winston) is to be expected.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16476 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    I'm in a benevolent mood, Gio, so kindy it is. We're a bit quiet here on the first day back, so I'm outside with my laptop. When are you next back, Jolisa? A get together we shall have. I was thinking a bit sooner tho'........

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed,

    Having said which, our surge in migration over the last couple of decades was certainly not negotiated beforehand, so unresolved fear (and Winston) is to be expected.

    And in fairness, multiculturalism seems to come across as an ivory-tower luxury to those whose jobs have just been offshored to Bangalore or Shenzhen. Just the sort of people most vulnerable to falling for opportunist BNP-style rhetoric.

    Thankfully, the trade unions involved in the Lindsey oil refinery dispute told the BNP to go and fuck itself. And unions in mainland Europe have, for some years now, made it a practice to expel members who are found to belong to neo-Nazi groups. Unions in NZ could do worse than to take a similar lead.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4154 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    When are you next back, Jolisa? A get together we shall have

    Not for a wee while, I hope (see other thread, re optimism). But I shall look forward to this.

    And I seriously mean no disrespect to your work: pre-school teachers are as gods to me (and my littler guy). The word "kindy" leapt to my lips straight from my 4-year-old self, still in there somewhere sniffing the playdough and gazing up proudly at paintings pegged up to dry. Same way "varsity" still springs unbidden when I'm feeling nostalgic for studenthood, even though it doesn't translate over here.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1410 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    there was quite a degree of prejudice against Dutch immigrants. It was felt that they worked too hard.

    And yet now, if you are looking at a house, what you want to hear your builder mate say is "ah, built by a Dutchman."

    It's a shame the Dutch attitude to quality didn't rub off.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2936 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    I wasn't sure whether to post this in this thread, or the other one, because the issues are relevant to both.

    It's such a pity that racism predominates in employment - speaking from the anecdata of friends who arrived as immigrants and refugees, who arrived weighed down with qualifications and experience, only to have them thrown away by both employers and the state as not local enough.

    You're telling me that teeth are different in Sri Lanka, New Zealand?

    Perhaps slightly less obvious, but only slightly less tragic as a waste of potentials, is the fact that racism towards language is also seemingly ubiquitous. A lilting accent is a mark against your name. We're missing the fact that speaking other languages and understanding other cultures is in fact very often a huge competitive asset, and gives the business the potential to see and interact with the world in different ways. It's not just foreigners who speak languages that are undervalued. New Zealand's universities ripped out their language departments in the 1990s, keeping only Maori, Pacific, North Asian, and the ever-popular Romance languages.

    We're denied the ability to speak with the world, and the world is denied the ability to speak with us.

    These things might be changing, slowly, but I'm impatient.

    The People's Republic of … • Since Nov 2006 • 2132 posts Report Reply

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