"Performers only ? NO MEDIA"

What a squandered opportunity, surely there should have been seats for Gnome Media...

NZ has such an entrenched love affair with all things Lord of the Rings – I even spotted a company in Chch selling Elf lubricants!!

not least when it comes to the likes of Sir Ian McKellen and Cate Blanchett, whose names have been invoked without them having apparently said anything at all on the matter.

Which somewhat bemused me, because whatever else you say about McKellen he's been an active member of Actor's Equity?

NZ has such an entrenched love affair with all things Lord of the Rings – I even spotted a company in Chch selling Elf lubricants!!

Would they be under-the-counter, or off the Elf?

One other small nit-pick, if the MEAA is going to claim they've never said The Hobbit is a "non-union production"

I was in a bit of a rush this morning and couldn't find the link to that.

It would be odd, because the home page of Equity features a headline,?

The character of Galadriel isn't in "The Hobbit", so Blanchett is unlikely to be involved in the film.

From Peter Jackson:

?Gandalf, being a 2,000-year-old wizard, is still around and plays a major role in ?The Hobbit,? and we?re having Ian McKellen reprise,? explained the filmmaker, who is executive-producing the?

Edit:

As per the filmonic link:

Galadriel and Elrond, the only returning ?LOTR? main roles besides Gandalf in his script

This seems a little unlikely, considering the role Gollum plays in the book.

THE Hobbit dispute has wider ramifications. Several people in the Australian film industry have questioned the MEAA's clumsy relations with international productions in this country and what appears to be an antipathy towards studio-produced film and television. A schism between crew, producers and the MEAA is growing,?

At least, that's what I understand.

Freedom to negotiate higher pay rates for jobs they would be less likely to get? Unenviable position, Imo.

I was in a bit of a rush this morning and couldn't find the link to that.

Here. Money quote:

No claim has been made suggesting The Hobbit is non union – simply that the production is aiming to employ New Zealand performers on non-union contracts by refusing to negotiate?

This seems a little unlikely, considering the role Gollum plays in the book.

Yes, Andy Serkis is already signed up.

However for the context of today's thread, he may have a different sort of contract, since he doesn't actually appear in the movie.

Here. And if author Steven Colbard doesn't have the authority to speak for the MEAA,

Thanks for that. So the Colbard article says this:

No claim has been made suggesting The Hobbit is non union

It's linked to from the Actors' Equity home page. The link sits just above this:?

I'm trying to get a login set up manually for her asap.

Gordon Campbell has quite a lot of interesting things to add.

He sure does. Short version remains: "it's complicated".

He also mentions the bizarre Vincent Gallo is a non-entity wrangle, which, as he notes, made Actors' Equity look a bit silly.

WTF?

Might have been better off sticking with the NDU — which, whatever else you say about it, doesn't come across as a wholly owned subsidiary of Disney.

He also mentions the bizarre Vincent Gallo is a non-entity wrangle, which, as he notes, made Actors' Equity look a bit silly.

?

Kristin Thompson, a film academic who wrote a book on the LOTR trilogy has a worthwhile blog that has been following the issue closely

Indeed. Good fisk of the Herald's hopeless editorial on the dispute too:

Has anyone seen any real evidence that Cate Blanchett and Ian McKellen are actively supporting?

... found that Bryson was in fact an employee of the Hobbit's production company Three Foot Six, and not merely a contractor.

You may be selling the Hobbit's production company a bit short if it is actually Three Foot Seven. I think Three Foot Six was the LOTR's production company.

An editorial in the Herald today says Peter Jackson ?implies that companies ... are attracted here not by New Zealanders' film-making skills or even the spectacular scenery but by the low cost of production?. *Implies?*

Implies? If anything, Jackson has been candid to a fault about how hard he had?

You may be selling the Hobbit's production company a bit short ...

Duh, thanks for that.

Good fisk of the Herald's hopeless editorial on the dispute too

Indeed. I particularly liked this irony-deficient bit of pomp from the Herald –

This means actors and crew must settle for less than they would earn in Hollywood for the greater good of the country and to preserve work?

It's actually quite funny, though not very deep.

The wider issue does smell of Hollywood runaway production politics.

To muddy the waters further, Sir Peter is himself a member of a union

That original statement: "I'm a very proud and loyal member of three Hollywood Unions – the Directors Guild, the Producers Guild and the Writers Guild."

Secondly, I can't think of a law that stops contractors combining to negotiate a contract. There are?

To muddy the waters further, Sir Peter is himself a member of a union, I'd hazard a guess it's the SAG or DGA.

IIRC, he's a member of three unions in the United States: The Directors, Writers and Producers Guilds. And he'd find it extremely difficult to work in America?

@David. The two movies cover The Hobbit and beyond leading up to the events of The Fellowship of the Ring, using Tolkein's notes and bits and pieces from his other Middle Earth stories to guide the plot.

Well, the White Council (which includes Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond and Galadriel) attacks the?

http://rights.apc.org.au/culture/2005/03/meaa_halts_worldfirst_film_project_in_australia.php

__"The US Screen Actors Guild (SAG) have endorsed our stance on Sanctuary and stated that their members **will not sign to any productions, either on film, tape?

"The US Screen Actors Guild (SAG) have endorsed our stance on Sanctuary and stated that their members will not sign to any productions, either on film, tape or digital, made under a creative commons licence," Whipp said.

Well, that sucks.

In fact, the whole statement that's excerpted from borders on?

"A performer with the head of a goat, spruiking for the Trotskyist party on a pro-abortion platform, it's all just part of the future of film?

Seriously, WTF is this man on and does it cause brain tumours in rats?

Mmmm. I accept that MEAA isn't the only agency struggling to accommodate Creative Commons — APRA tells its members that they can't release CC works and still stay on its books, because they've given it licence?

Indeed, APRA has more of a case, and it still at least makes constructive noises.

And we're not being threatened with four disc concept albums from singing and dancing pro-abortion Marxist wekas. Though, now you mention it, I'd give that a spin...

The pixel legions tread paths we can not?

"Fighting runaway production is one of the Guild's highest national priorities," Guild President Melissa Gilbert said. "This report is invaluable because it proves how devastating runaway production is for all entertainment industry workers who live and work in California.?

SAG on not letting hobbitses get away to Middle Earth:

To be fair, that's exactly what I'd expect from an American trade union. But I guess I shouldn't point out the delicious irony that it's almost obligatory nowadays for hit American shows to be headlined by non-American actors (like our?

Is "runaway production" SAG speak for "other countries having a film industry"? As in "film productions that ran away from us"?

Pretty much.

I think this comes down to a conflict between those who want to do cool stuff and aren't worried about money (the trust fund helps, eh) and?

Contrary to your imagination, the CGI shit gets coded and rasturbated by real people. Who also get paid peanuts on the whole.

A friend of mine did CGI work for all the LOTR films. I don't know exactly what he earned, but it certainly wasn't peanuts. It was quite a?

Ctrl+alt+delete
the ultimate contract negotiation technique.

doesn't that just kill the directory information?
and the data still exists until overwritten...

Contrary to your imagination, the CGI shit gets coded and rasturbated by real people.

Dang! – you mean Tron is fiction!!?

Contrary to your imagination, the CGI shit gets coded and rasturbated by real people.

I'd say what I thought I saw when I first glanced at that but I don't want to go lowering the tone.

Suspect it's a nasty mental association from that blue (on multiple levels) Avatar parody?

A friend of mine did CGI work for all the LOTR films. I don't know exactly what he earned, but it certainly wasn't peanuts. It was quite a lot of money. Mind you, he didn't have a life for a few years.

True enough — and Weta doesn't attract the?

And good on him?

Yet behind this is the Supreme Court's 2006 decision on the case of miniature model maker James Bryson, which reversed the Court of Appeal's earlier decision, and found that Bryson was in fact an employee...and not merely a contractor. The screen industry is full of contractors ? I'm one ??

Jonathan King:

"Oh, and say what you will about SPADA, at least they've made a clear statement on this issue. The Directors Guild and Writers Guild have remained silent on this, the most significant labour issue?

Sorry to disagree with so many of you – but I don't know any architects, lawyers, or doctors who would work for inferior rates in order to show how patriotic they were.

Actors, writers – creative workers – have always been seen as easy targets -?

@Dave:
Ctrl+alt+delete
the ultimate contract negotiation technique.

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Peter Jackson has not recently been prepared to make personal sacrifices. The taxpayer has rewarded him handsomely for his hard work.

Fact check on aisle six — how exactly did the "taxpayer" reward Jackson? Unless I really missed something, if you're talking about the tax breaks I've been highly critical?

My impression is that anyone (be they architects, lawyers, doctors, actors, or others) who works in New Zealand is working at an inferior rate to the rest of the OECD.

Yup. For science it's variable but equivalent roles in Aussie are paid 25-100% more. Just a part of choosing to?

David – my father died a while back and if his lawyer was poorly paid for?

IIRC, he's a member of three unions in the United States: The Directors, Writers and Producers Guilds.

He might be good for some union backing then.

Go to his union(s), make a complaint that he is being unfairly targeted for exploitation by a gang of thieving Aussie bastards called the?

if you're talking about the tax breaks I've been highly critical of they went straight to Warner Brothers and Disney (the corporate parents of Miramax and New Line

Really Craig. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but I thought they were tax breaks for the film industry; tax breaks which Peter Jackson?

Go to his union(s), make a complaint that he is being unfairly targeted for exploitation by a gang of thieving Aussie bastards called the MEAA.

Honestly, who'd notice? I think it's fair comment to say there's no love to lose between the various trade guilds in the US. The writers?

Every actor who appears in it gets face-time in something that will be seen by millions of people.

Most people can't eat that kind of stuff.

Most people can't eat that kind of stuff.

Yes, but they might value it nonetheless.

Yes, but they might value it nonetheless.

When the giggling and farting of the rats in the ceiling starts to get on your nerves you can always bring up your entry in the IMDb.

Sorry to disagree with so many of you – but I don't know any architects, lawyers, or doctors who would work for inferior rates in order to show how patriotic they were.

I know lots of journalists — including me — who accept a fraction of what they might get?

@Dave:
Ctrl+alt+delete
the ultimate contract negotiation technique.

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

I don't think that character could negotiate

Most people can't eat that kind of stuff.

Yes, but they might value it nonetheless.

They might also get an SAG membership and more work out of it.

Good fisk of the Herald's hopeless editorial

What does "fisk" mean, please ? Is it some trendy, new term in vogue in Auckland that has yet to get past the Bombays ?

If someone could explain, it'd be appreciated.

What does "fisk" mean, please ? Is it some trendy, new term in vogue in Auckland that has yet to get past the Bombays ?

As Wikipedia says, it's a point-by-point rebuttal of a written argument, internet styles. Nearly a decade old.

The name derives originally from Robert Fisk getting?

snap

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fisk

whenever I come accross new word I urban dictionary it and hope what I read won't melt my brain

yesterday i learned the TIL means "Today I Learned"

Most people can't eat that kind of stuff.

No, they can't. But most people in New Zealand can't depend on relocating to LA or Sydney and hoping they're going to make it in pilot season either.

Most people can't eat that kind of stuff.

Yes, but they might value it nonetheless.

They might also get an SAG membership and more work out of it.

You might. And you might win Lotto on Saturday night. Especially if you appeared on a non-union contract.

You might. And you might win Lotto on Saturday night.

I submit that the odds are considerably better than those for winning Lotto.

Yes, but they might value it nonetheless.

Indeed – anyone who thinks Ainsley Gardner and Taika Waititi made the price of a good lunch at Prego out of Two Cars, One Night just doesn't know jack about short films. But the attention it got on the festival circuit (and the?

I submit that the odds are considerably better than those for winning Lotto.

Furthermore, in a free society, people are allowed to buy Lotto tickets.

Say there was a newspaper somewhere with its?

It was renegotiated with Actors' Equity more or less annually until 2005, when the MEAA took over Equity. SPADA apparently offered to renegotiate?

I hate the "but it?

there has been no discussion about matching Brad Pitt conditions.

If Helen is reading this: First, hello there and thanks for contributing. But what do you mean by "Brad Pitt conditions"?

What the performers are saying is that they want their union involved.

Would be out of order to ask?

#BradPittConditions

Dare ya

Dare ya

I'm afraid Angelina Jolie will crush me with her pouty lips of doom and titanium-hard thighs.

But sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "I can't hear you", won't make certain brutal, intractable realities go away.

Yeah. But I don't think the actors at least have done that. The MEAA might have, but they seem like the mad players in his story.

It just seems?

pouty lips of doom and titanium-hard thighs

Not sure she's even on Twitter, is she?

#youknowyouwantto

Seriously, it's not that hard to employ a bunch of people on fixed?

The almost instinctive anti unionism displayed here has got to be related to a generation of independent contracting by middle class kiwis. I am a freelancer too but I know where my loyalties lie.

I mildly object to that, Alec. I'm not putting the boot into anyone. I know good?

Kyle, one of the big issues here with actors is that you can't necessarily hire them on a fixed term on a film like this.

Yes, but you could employ them on a casual contract.

I just think the claim "We can't talk to the union because they're not employees"?

It would be good to hear details about the differences in conditions experienced by NZ actors and crews and those in Australia or other jurisdictions. Maybe that's been?

But here's my two cents worth on something that has been forgotten in all of this. Yes acting requires passion and commitment and self-sacrifice and all that. Lots of careers in the arts do. But isn't acting something folks get into – like entertainment journalism?

(reply button did not apply for some reason)

Pretty sure those reply buttons don't auto-quote the post they're part of – they just drop you right down to the box at the bottom of the page.

I am willing to withdraw my generalisation ?anti unionism displayed here? and apologise to any other union supporters at PA.

Thank you for that. I may be on the rightward-side of PAS (hell, I am the right wing of PAS, more often than not) but I'm not going to blindly?

Russell Baillie's take isn't exactly helpful

Imagine my surprise

The actors' legal advice something like – you may not be able to have a collective contract, but you can still agree on terms with a bunch of people.

And there's hopefully scope for that — but still bearing in mind that MEAA refused to re-negotiate the Pink Book with?

And Jennifer Ward-Lealand's statement is a lot more constructive than the disgraceful statement that Simon Whipp drew up for the affiliate guilds and unions to sign.

And fully aware, I'm sure, that any SAG or Equity UK member who signs up for a "non-union" production is in very serious shit?

I recall first seeing NZ Equity President Jennifer Ward-Lealand in a Renee play??Pass it on? many years ago, plot concerned the 1951 waterfront lockout and Jennifer may have absorbed some of the values therein.

Forgive me if I've misread that as coming across as a touch patronising, but I'd have?

I reckon there's a big difference between putting in ridiculous hours for peanuts on a local production that everyone knows has little chance of raking in big income and being expected to do the same for a multi-national studio production when evidence of the unevenly-shared huge profits is obvious.

Smart?

I've had some comment from someone who's not a direct party to the dispute, and not involved in the industry — but not unsympathetic to the producers.

Which I paraphrase thus:

---

The Actors' Equity legal advice says that s30 of the Commerce Act — price-fixing as anti-competitive?

I felt uneasy about Alec's comment, but mainly because it contained a sizable grain of truth as far as I'm concerned. The only union I've ever been in was when I worked at McDonald's as a teenager, and a fat lot of good that did me.

As a journalist, I?

BTW, Russell, Preview button seems to have become the Post button. If you're reading this, I pressed preview.

Weird. Just as well the fabulous new site is on its way.

I think that Producers' issues?

I suppose this is why you and I both are contractors by choice.

Yes, it's also why I hover right on the cusp of that even scarier capitalist institution, the Capitalist. Not long now...

That the MEAA have let their legal incorporated society status lapse may neither be a conspiracy or moronic incompetence, just simply a?

Hmmm. It appears that The Standard has assigned me a side in the class war.

I'm definitely feeling a thick fog of class war around this whole issue. As with most wars, the grunts are the ones who will actually die, and the civilians.

Key to union participation is loyalty. As job loyalty has declined so have unions in New Zealand. This was the main premise of a paper I wrote for a sociology class I took a few years back.?

The 'good' is ephemeral (and has mainly been downstream for tourism interests – that's been fine for owners & workers in that industry BUT?

Hmmm how unlike Russel Brown to be flustered by arguments on teh forums.

I'm tired and stressed, the house is literally in pieces around me and I have to drag myself out to read something quite personal to a whole lot of people I don't know at an earthquake relief?

And we dont see him as actually *helping* ANZ films/film projects.

Just his own.

I suppose his long-term financial and practical support for 48 Hours and other grassroots projects doesn't count, then?

I've certainly had my criticisms of him, but, c'mon ...

As someone who has made two feature films in NZ that would not have been made if not for support from Peter Jackson (and, for that matter, Richard Taylor) both in indirect ways — service from Weta Workshop,?

"Grassroots projects"? Love to know about 'em.

Answer apopo – or the next day – you're obviously feeling stretched, and I'm not all that hungry for the answers. (= Peter Jackson?

My comment is NOT complete bullshit: it is the *perception* that quite a few people working in creative areas, have-

and, o yes, I have my own opinion of Richard Taylor.

Hmmm. It appears that The Standard has assigned me a side in the class war. Sigh ...

The bad company we keep, ay mate. I know who my friends and my enemies are and the contempt of the Sub-Standard/Kiwibog Axis of Idiocy is a badge of honour. Don't let the?

Loyalty can be insurmountable when defenders flock to a banner being raised from all the most unexpected places. I believe this is what will be achieved by Jackson's?

A whispering of voices all pleading "Don't you want the Hobbit to be filmed in New Zealand? Don't you want to be in the Hobbit?"

And for the second time today, I'm out of here before I say something really toxic that I'll live to regret.

Jonathan King- no. You've told me that Peter Jackson (& Richard Taylor & associated studio bodies) have helped your 2 films to get made. Did they help with – what is truly the essential matter -?

my comment you quoted was a bit of a wind up. My bad

While I am truly ambivalent about e-books,

It's another topic I know – sorry Russell – but there has to be a way to compensate authors for e-books. It's incredibly cheap for the publishers – one copy to please them all (see I'm sort of staying on topic) – and?

a few things that I can't resist commenting on;

Someone suggested that if actors unions were too strong it would put agents out of their jobs. I really don't have any connection to the?

My focus for this discussion is really the question of how strong is the MEAA.

Therefore what factors make?

So: we?

But getting NZ films out there? It's really hard ... and getting harder ...

I totally agree with the last line of your post.
I think authors & film-makers should band together.

If there is a void in professional representation peeps generally get together and solve it.

It would not surprise me if a rival to the MEAA in NZ is?

. . . if abandonment or disparagement of collective solutions prevails we are headed to becoming ?individual contractors? in an existential as well as employment sense. Our relationship with and fair treatment of others helps define us and make life more fulfilling and bearable.

While I don't have any argument?

Chris Trotter has now weighed in and helpfully compared Chris Finlayson to the Mouth of Sauron.

Considering the number of times Trotter's been compared to a porcine sphincter in recent years, it had to happen.

And here's a particularly delish piece of fuck-wittery from Trotter:

What should we make of?

UNION OR NOT!!!

Whoa only 3 exclamation marks in the title. That's not shouting at me.

but! I will keep on looking!

I win the kids I teach over by showing them my sketch art portfolio. Other than that I build costumes and props for friends dance performance group.

The reason you are having trouble tracking me on?

Joe – you say

much of the blame lies with an out of touch and overly professionalised union elite, with no workplace experience of the realities faced by those they purport to represent.

I have worked for unions for a number of years until relatively recently.?

You – well, nobody, except?

I'm tired and stressed,

Big hugs, :)

Being called a class traitor

Is someone else's opinion. Don't sweat the small shit Russell. Why on earth would you want to do that

I've certainly had my criticisms of him, but, c'mon ...

Good for me.
Some guy going for Council on?

Unions are no longer compulsory, they do not give orders and they are not insurance companies. They are collections of working people, who, of course, have intimate experience of their own industries.

Please Jan, I understand the first part, there's really no need to patronise. I've been a union delegate,?

and now, read it again.
And, now, read again what the fuck you said.

We really are not communicating eh?

OK.

I dont care.

Wont carry on this conversation. Very tired. And the whole thing is silly.
Bye bye.

Jonathan King – that is wonderful! (Ur, was going on its release here, where the sales impression wasnt -quite so much.)

Nope, Black Sheep did well here too, especially compared to some more fancied films.

I see now it's been sorted out a bit, but I'm still surprised at the?

Russell – read what I said again:
and now, read it again.

And, now, read again what the fuck you said.

I was responding to your first few comments, on the previous page, which were out of order. I thought you were really rude to Jonathan (as in, an apology?

Bit over Hobbits now, but.

bleh teh poor wee hobbits need a union now to make sure the Russel Browns of the world know about 2nd breakfast and trolls turning to stone in sunlight

And here's a particularly delish piece of fuck-wittery from Trotter:

What should we make of the well-known media personality and (of all people) the film producer (!) who rolled up to the NZ Actors Equity union-meeting in Grey Lynn expecting to be admitted?

As you say Craig, it wasn't a?

Bogans!

. . . hairy-arsed Bogans.

But I suppose there's some irony in seeing the trojans of the Left pouring shit over Crown Law and hailing the opposing opinion of a corporate legal firm. I should have got a photo.

Um, yes... and one might disrespectfully suggest Chris Finlayson does have a track record of putting?

to make sure the Russel Browns of the world know about 2nd breakfast

Mmm ... second breakfast.

Although right now I'm thinking more about appreciatin' dodgy old Pt Chev Super Liquor, for:

(a) Being open when everyone else is shut.

(b) Remembering that I'm the guy who wanders in every?

I'm sick of this frankly.

Take a ride down river in a barrel and escape those distrustful scheming elves of mirkwood

Bit over Hobbits now, but.

As I said in my PAR piece this week: The real phantom menace we should be up in arms about is Jar-Jar frigging Binks and Princess Alabama-Ding-Dong in 3-D — and that's just for starters. ?This is the path to the dark side. Re-releases lead?

"you've raped my childhood for the last time, Lucas"

you could just not watch this rehash hairy-ass bogans trash. I'm on a film binge for the school holidays but won't go near lucas arts latest troll droppings

Ugh. Folks, it appears this Hobbit thing might get worse soon.

I think farcical is the word you're looking for.

The real phantom menace we should be up in arms about is Jar-Jar frigging Binks and Princess Alabama-Ding-Dong in 3-D --

Craig, please. It's too early in the morning for my blood pressure to be rising so rapidly.

Being called a class traitor

I feel this was just a case of the usual
web malady – woeful spelling...

I'm sure they really meant that you are
a Class Traiteur!

A word which indicates you are a fine provider of food for thought and to?

An actor, who is not a union member, but was invited to vote

It would seem voting rights were granted to all actors in attendance and I would hope that this applied to speakig rights as well.

NZ Actors Equity president Jennifer Ward-Lealand said?