OnPoint by Keith Ng

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OnPoint: On Freedom of Speech

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  • Kyle Matthews,

    Ms Lal, whose father is a Fiji Indian and mother a New Zealander

    Ooh that is interesting. I wonder if her father is a New Zealander of Fijian Indian ethnicity? Or if he's actually a Fijian.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    The timeline is fuzzy to me at this point, but Ben was the absolute first to step up and say "It's not OK", without test-polling or fear of consequences, right?

    Very same day. I'm pretty sure the stuff news article on Ben's decision was the next main turn reported on, after the initial story.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Now Campbell Live is parroting the Herald, almost word for word. I despair (actually no, I complain, and already have to TV3).

    If Ms Lal had been excluded from the contest, for not "looking Indian", then that would be a legitimate story. But she wasn't.

    If she had been discriminated against by the judges, then that would be a story. But she wasn't. She won.

    It's a story to celebrate, to demonstrate the fucking ABSENCE of fucking racism (yeah, I'm going a bit Keith in my rage).

    But the story that so excites the Herald and Campbell Live is, in its entirety, that at a function, a few people booed. Yes, a few is always too many. As are the few but too many who make racist comments any weekend at sports events, or who get pissed and obnoxious on a Saturday night, or any other example of boorish behaviour.

    But otherwise, sure, it's just like Paul Henry. Fuck off.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1333 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    I now have a mental picture of someone hiding behind a door sniggering with a six foot tall vagina, waiting to jump out at Jeremy.

    Wait, what?

    Oh, the other one...

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    If Paul Henry abusing someone can be held up as a point, then abusing Paul Henry can be too. It was a reductio ad absurdum on the "free speech has been damaged" line. Graeme was just trying to straighten the point out - because the reductio is a valid criticism, that means the negation of the point holds - Paul Henry abusing someone is not a point, and nor is abusing Paul Henry. It's an ad hominem attack, an invalid line of argument.

    Thanks for that Ben, great post.

    If Graeme's comments here lack their usual clarity and require interpretation, might that be because the definition of free speech is a moral rather than a legal issue? Henry's style has never been to present 'suggestions' based on sincerely held convictions. He's built a career pandering to a substantial fanbase by playing the cynical shit-stirrer, signalling his true intentions with nudges and winks. Such an approach is calculated to preclude any valid 'line of argument', even at some hypothetical $2 Shop of Ideas level.

    Cunt or not, Henry's the equivalent of the vexatious litigant - an individual who is not acting in good faith for the purpose of annoying or embarrassing an opponent.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    You think? Check out today's 'race row' story about the fair-haired, fair-skinned Miss IndiaNZ winner. Her father is Fijian-Indian, her mother is reported to be... a New Zealander.

    If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Herald being fed a patsy story by blondie's PR reps, who saw a golden (sorry) opportunity to get their client a nice big wedge of free exposure off the back of the Henry saga.

    The Herald, having abdicated any sort of moral responsibility since ages ago, and also not actually wanting to do anything that might involve work, effort or thinking, was more than happy to swallow what was handed to them on a plate, and give the scandal of the week a new spin on the front page.

    Who had heard of blondie before this? No-one.

    And who knows about her now?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • bruce rogan,

    Being an ageing heterosexual male who is still able to recall them, I have nothing but favourable recollections of cunts, so while I find myself paddling happily alongside this analysis of Paul Henry's conduct, I would have been happier still if he had been described in more pejorative terms.

    northland • Since Oct 2010 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi,

    I would have been happier still if he had been described in more pejorative terms.

    How about "a mental midget with the IQ of a fencepost"?

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi,

    If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Herald being fed a patsy story by blondie's PR reps, who saw a golden (sorry) opportunity to get their client a nice big wedge of free exposure off the back of the Henry saga.

    Probably nothing so organised as that, but I did think that the mention that "this story has only come to light in the wake of the Paul Henry scandal" was telling. Maybe it was one of those stories that the reporters had been aware of earlier, but never bothered to run because the outrage levels weren't high enough.

    Although I must admit, my first reaction on seeing the picture of the winner on the front page before I ever read the headline was "Oh, another missing white girl?" (Tongue firmly in cheek while swinging from the gallows, you understand.)

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    Look a white,blue eyed Miss India winner in a beauty pageant is a story anywhere in the world. Celebrating Indian babes usually has a lot to do with their beautiful dark skin tones.

    It's still a strange way to celebrate thousands of years of Indian culture by ligning up the skinny pretty ladies for rating.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Herald being fed a patsy story by blondie's PR reps, who saw a golden (sorry) opportunity to get their client a nice big wedge of free exposure off the back of the Henry saga.

    In which case, it's worked. OTOH, her appearance was the angle for a Capital Times story back in April, when she entered the contest. Contrary to reports, she eventually didn't even place in the top 3.

    Now you have the Daily Telegraph in Britain declaring New Zealand at centre of another race row as beauty contestant booed.

    Um, yeah. It's "another race row" that happened ages ago and has precisely nothing to do with the Paul Henry fiasco. Look at this sort of conscious falsification and ponder why people hate the news media.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • uroskin,

    But I did feel a wee bit squeamish at Margaret Mutu seeming to state belief as empirical fact.

    I trust Prof Mutu knows empirically that 80% of a whale's sperm doesn't get into his girlfriend and that's why the sea tastes salty. (Thank you, Jack Dee)

    Waiheke Island • Since Feb 2007 • 178 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    Miss Beautiful Eyes
    Miss Friendship
    Miss Beautiful Hair
    Miss Personality
    Miss Photogenic
    Miss Photographic
    Miss Potential Model
    Miss Beautiful Skin
    Miss Beautiful Smile
    Miss Talent

    That's the categories. What a Monster.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    I trust Prof Mutu knows empirically that 80% of a whale's sperm doesn't get into his girlfriend and that's why the sea tastes salty. (Thank you, Jack Dee)

    Now all i'm thinking of is large pools of whale glue floating around the oceans, I'm not swimming this summer.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • st ephen,

    has precisely nothing to do with the Paul Henry fiasco

    I thought the link to Paul Henry isn't the story itself but rather the way it was reported. ie. she doesn't look "Indian" because her mother is actually a "New Zealander". Or a "Kiwi" as the Capital Times had it. So apparently Capital Times reporters (back then) and Herald reporters (still) are indeed thinking what Paul Henry is thinking.

    But that second link now has me wondering about Miss Beautiful Smile Lucy Russell...

    dunedin • Since Jul 2008 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    conscious falsification

    With real harm to NZ's reputation. That's likely to affect whether people want to move here, study here (remember previous waves of reporting about anti-Asian racism) or visit us with their tourist dollars. And who pays for that?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    Great point Sacha. We must be starting to look kind of shit overseas which is a real problem because we need positive interest.

    We are islands in the south pacific who boldly tell the world how fresh and new we are in order to compete in their dollar games yet our painful domestic spats over "What a New Zealander looks like?" are getting far too much attention.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Media might think twice about cheap populism if they actually had to pay for its impact.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    But that second link now has me wondering about Miss Beautiful Smile Lucy Russell...

    Please note that Miss Lucy Russell is Miss Beautiful Skin. Miss Beautiful Smile was won by Miss Isha Shevde.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    What about Miss Beautiful Earlobes or Miss Perfect Elbow?

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    Emma:

    I now have a mental picture of someone hiding behind a door sniggering with a six foot tall vagina, waiting to jump out at Jeremy.

    Putting two and two together...

    Sacha:

    With real harm to NZ's reputation. That's likely to affect whether people want to move here, study here (remember previous waves of reporting about anti-Asian racism) or visit us with their tourist dollars. And who pays for that?

    It's a bit like the fallout from the Indo-bashing incidents in Oz, but with vocabulary instead of fists. Even then, the hurt is no better.

    So how do we make Tabloidistan pay for all this diplomatic incidence? A class-action lawsuit, maybe? In America, it seemed to work for the Southern Poverty Law Centre against the KKK.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    In the past, a national blurt about race - including irresponsible media coverage - might have been moderated by strong political leadership. Sadly that's far more likely in Auckland now than across the country, thanks to the limp 1990s free-marketeers in the big chairs.

    Opportunists don't mind whistling up the base either. Watch Pita Sharples be about as frank as I've ever seen him in his disgust for Rodney Hide (CloseUp, 7 min clip).

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • sally jones,

    If you're not scared of war ghosts entering your vagina...

    If I had a vagina I would be disappointed someone is trying to scare me with it.

    I think it most apt that a discussion that began about freedom of speech and the marketplace of ideas has come to this - not sure where 'this' is but I for one can't get enough of talk about vaginas, cunts, twats and ghosts. What ever happened to wanker(s)? I wouldn't want to exclude anyone...

    Just a note on freedom as I understand it. As citizens of a liberal democracy (women and wankers alike - not sure about ghosts) we hold rights to exercise our freedom in so far as our actions, including our words, respect the equal freedoms of others. Most of these freedoms are negative freedoms from interference rather than positive freedoms to act. I believe this means we are not free to say or write - in public - anything we like in protection of the other person's right against harmful interference. To be prevented from harming others or punished for doing so is not an infringement of right. Though it's up to a court or the BSA or other official agency to decide what is harmful - and good luck to them with that in the case of words (not to mention pictures!!!). Sticks and stones are a bit more cut and dry.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2010 • 179 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Look a white,blue eyed Miss India winner in a beauty pageant is a story anywhere in the world. Celebrating Indian babes usually has a lot to do with their beautiful dark skin tones.

    Actually, there's a whole motherload of touchy ethnic issues skimming under the surface there. Ever taken a look at your average lineup of Bollywood actresses? Ever compared their looks to your actual average Indian woman? They are significantly lighter-skinned; it's considered a sign of wealth and good breeding. People will take out marriage ads asking for fair-skinned (for a value of fair, obviously) brides. Darker skin tones are associated with being poor and lower-caste (and then there's the southern vs. northern thing - southern Indians are usually darker.)

    Obviously there are an awful lot of people who do not think this way, and who are trying to change it, but the lighter-is-prettier standard of beauty is an ongoing issue in Indian society. It's one that doesn't usually get examined in the Western beauty media because if any attention is paid to South Asian women it's about their Exotic Good Looks, but I think it provides an important amount of context to the whole thing.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    That's the categories. What a Monster.

    What no:

    Miss Sogyny
    Miss Conception
    Miss Anthrope
    Miss Behaving
    Miss Feasance
    Miss Apprehension
    Miss Cegenation
    Miss Fortune
    Miss Smash
    Miss Judged
    Miss Shapen
    Miss Stress
    Miss Trussed
    Miss Directed
    Miss Tea-Eyed
    Miss Understood
    Miss Used

    Niece work if you can get it....

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

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