Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: New Old Left?

153 Responses

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  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Act received markedly fewer votes than a party not represented in Parliament, New Zealand First...

    ACT got 85,496 votes. New Zealand First got 95,356 votes. ACT got 5 MPs. NZF got enough votes for 5 MPs. This is not a particularly marked difference.

    But I don't want Douglas in Parliament, and I think it's damn unfair that Epsom gets to put him there.

    Roger Douglas is a member of Parliament because ACT convinced a lot of voters to give them their party votes. Rodney Hide's win in Epsom wasn't enough, they needed the party votes too, and they got them. It is not unfair that the people who gave their party vote to the ACT party are represented by a group of MPs proportionate to the size of their vote.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 2999 posts Report Reply

  • Caleb D'Anvers,

    I think there would be more chance of having a centre-left government if the Green Party started grabbing votes off National, rather than just off Labour. If the Greens shift to the centre, say they'll work with anyone as long as they get a number of key wins and this new party emerges "left of Labour" with its votes partly coming from the Greens (who hopefully pick up a whole pile more environmentally conscious centrists) and partly from Labour, things could be interesting.

    But what happens if this party to left of Labour does much worse than predicted, and, chastened, amalgamates with the Greens? And then who do we turn to when the Greens start wearing yellow ties, speaking Spanish, and waving around little orange booklets? It could happen.

    East Greenwich • Since Mar 2008 • 424 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    I guess Mao wasn't a true Scotsman, eh, andin.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Bruce Thorpe,

    The Super City election has brought into the light a political coalition of Pasifika, socially conscious Christian and anti-privilege bogan activists.
    I can see McCarten and Bradford will be interested in such a new leftish beast but I think there has always been more of this political flavour at the community level of council and trust board elections than in the much larger polling parliamentary elections.
    I do not see a Matt and Sue party polling 5%

    Hokianga • Since May 2007 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    It is not unfair that the people who gave their party vote to the ACT party are represented by a group of MPs proportionate to the size of their vote.

    An argument is that influence in parliament is not proportionate to the number of elected MPs.

    If ACT (or UF, or NZF in the last government) were small factions of National Party backbenchers, they would have minimal influence. They wouldn't get ministerial jobs or policy asks. That's why they founded their parties - because they felt sidelined in larger groups.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4442 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Why? Because Stalin, the Shining Path, the Red Brigades, or the Great Leap Forward haven't put you off them yet?

    No, but I see your point.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7355 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    The Super City election has brought into the light a political coalition of Pasifika, socially conscious Christian and anti-privilege bogan activists.
    I can see McCarten and Bradford will be interested in such a new leftish beast

    As bogans are, by definition, people who hit their kids, Sue Bradford's involvement can't help but be a good thing.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 3432 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Would it not be possible to allow a form of STV (just not voter driven), the reallocation happening according to a pre-election list provided by the party?

    I wouldn't want the parties reallocating my party vote.

    But having your MMP vote reallocated via a list (sorta like STV, but without the surplus vote reallocation) would be interesting. I could then vote for a real left-wing party and put the greens second (and hold my nose and put labour third I guess).

    Since Nov 2006 • 6162 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I don't see left wing fragmentation increasing the number of votes on that side. But it could mean that voters get the Left that they want. That's meant to be one of the points of MMP. 'Course, if the Left gets in, you've still got a Labour government, every time.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8441 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    'Course, if the Left gets in, you've still got a Labour government, every time.

    Although not necessarily the reverse, huh?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Yup, Labour could still just occupy the center. Also, a Grand Coalition is still not impossible with MMP, if too much fragmentation happens at the edges, and the centrists find more in common with each other than with the extremes. I can see this only happening during an extreme crisis.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8441 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Actually, I can't see it at all*, now I reconsider. Our extreme parties always flock to centrism in crisis. I think it's a national tendency. That's probably part of the reason MMP does seem to provide stable government here - we only go nuts when times are good. In bad times, ranks lock.

    *Edit: A Grand Coalition

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8441 posts Report Reply

  • JLM,

    I suppose to summarise, as a "centre left" supporter I think there would be more chance of having a centre-left government if the Green Party started grabbing votes off National, rather than just off Labour.

    I was at a GP gathering over the weekend, and heard anecdotally from someone who scrutineers in a well-heeled area that this is already the case to some extent, and there are many who vote for the NP candidate and party vote Green. Which is probably why Key was floating banning sow crates this morning. He's been doing some polling.

    From my observations there, the GP is in very good heart, and central to that is the knowledge that members can directly affect how their MPs vote on issues, through policy and feedback, and if they get it wrong, they damn well let them know. If they keep getting it wrong, there's a democratic list-ranking process coming up to send a stronger message.

    There were about equal numbers of people who joined from environmental and social justice concerns, but all of us were united in recognising that both are inseparable and equally vital (including between nations as well as within them). And that's why I'm a Green, not a member of the Alliance, whose slogan at the last election was 'People first", or some other "pure" embryonic left-wing party.

    Judy Martin's southern sl… • Since Apr 2007 • 228 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Well one out of four aint bad.

    You should have given it Marx out of ten. Ahahahahaha fuck I'm funny.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2396 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    There's a farm for people as funny as you, Rich...

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2068 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2396 posts Report Reply

  • Phil Lyth,

    heard anecdotally from someone who scrutineers in a well-heeled area that this is already the case to some extent, and there are many who vote for the NP candidate and party vote Green.

    Here you can see that 16,549 people voted Green list & National electorate.

    Whereas 74,330 voted Green list & Labour electorate and 52,485 gave both votes to the Greens.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2009 • 443 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Love that chart Phil.

    Checkout the leaglise dope party spliff their crossover equally with Greens & National. It's Labour where the really strong stuff is.

    Bill & Ben have a strong National tendancy.

    I'm conflustered at the Workers Party - National crossover, it's stronger than the Greens- National mutation.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1147 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Got to remember that a lot of people know that their electorate vote isn't necessarily going to come close to making a difference. So the link between the party and electorate vote might be a little frivilous.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6162 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Got to remember that a lot of people know that their electorate vote isn't necessarily going to come close to making a difference. So the link between the party and electorate vote might be a little frivilous.

    I'd be one of those. Voted for Worthless Dick in the vain hope of keeping Rodney out of Parliament, but cast my party vote Green. I imagine there were a few of us in Epsom who went a similar way, or split Worth/Labour.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3901 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Yes, or such strategic (rather him than him) choices, like Matthew.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6162 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Voted ... in the vain hope of keeping Rodney out of Parliament, but cast my party vote Green. I imagine there were a few of us in Epsom who went a similar way, or split Worth/Labour.

    You might be surprised.

    16% of Green Party voters in Epsom gave Rodney Hide their electorate vote, vs. 18% for Richard Worth.

    Of Labour Party voters in Epsom, more gave their electorate votes to Rodney (16%), and Keith Locke (15%) than Richard (11%).

    And 11% of people who gave their party vote to ACT in Epsom, voted for someone other than Rodney!

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 2999 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    And 11% of people who gave their party vote to ACT in Epsom, voted for someone other than Rodney!

    WTF???

    They wanted ACT in parliament, but only if it could make 5% without a life-line?

    They wanted ACT in parliament, but really didnt like Hide?

    They just didnt understand how the system works?

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 794 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    They represent perfectly the champions of private excellence the party offers as its solution to every problem

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16605 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    They wanted ACT in parliament, but only if it could make 5% without a life-line?

    They wanted ACT in parliament, but really didnt like Hide?

    They just didnt understand how the system works?

    Probably all of those. Also, there are people who might prefer a different local representative to Hide, without actually not wanting Hide in Parliament.

    I find the ones who party voted Labour but gave electorate vote to Hide the most confused.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8441 posts Report Reply

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