Yes it was, but was it any less weird and spineless than Goff?s ? to put it bluntly, how tolerant should we be of Goff dog-whistling marriage equality to GLBT audiences when the cameras are around? Frankly, I?m pretty glad I had a?

I think it was objectively way weirder: "I know the answer but I'm not?

You have to buy the book. It's like he has opinions that are for subscribers only. What a leader!

There would be no new votes in marriage equality. But perhaps now is the time for the idea to be formalised into a private member's bill.

It'd have to be a private member's bill, and it'd have to be a conscience vote. Which is why my electorate vote is in?

Which is conveniently already drafted (available in other formats on request, and I'll happily tweak it). So all we need is an MP brave enough to put it in the ballot. So come?

The political decision at that time was to go with a Civil Union approach, so?

That basically equates to the Prime Minister saying he'll only answer a particular question if he's paid to do so. That's pretty unbecoming for a national leader.

It also sounds like he's given up on being PM and is already?

So all we need is an MP brave enough to put it in the ballot.

And in order to suck some of the poison out of the debate, it should be a straight, married MP. Someone who can say, "I have this right, it's important to me, it should be?

It's certainly a question I'll be putting to the folks who'd like to replace Wayne Mapp as the National?

Objectively, if we?ve got to parse what Goff meant by ?discrimination in the community? and guess WTF he meant by ?more work to be done? (and did anyone ask him for?

Assuming they believe in the principle, yes.

I'd wager that it won't form part of a Labour manifesto this year

Goff has said repeatedly that it was social engineering that brought Labour down last?

I think it did create an opportunity for?

Go and troll somewhere else.

Shall we cross that troll-bridge when the usual suspects come to it?

Yes, you can legalize polygamy, bestiality, paedophilia and incest any damn time you like ? and the moment anyone suggests any such thing I?ll state my objections. But if?

Which would be nice, but I don?t think being a married mother?

But my wife went, she was the NZSL interpreter on stage for 3 hours in the baking sun. She came home pretty fried, but said it was worth it to support her gay friends.

She?

I don't think having an entourage is much of a credibility enhancer – unless you're a rapper. :)

That's exactly what I thought!

Combine?

Knocked that childhood-dream bastard off, time to move on to the next challenge. Though quite what that would be, I?m not sure. President of the US is out, and he doesn?t lean the ?right? way for a?

maybe because the Greens are so gay-friendly...

Not meaning to pick on you guys, I vote Green, but if that's the case then for the Love of Mike could one of you put the fucking bill in the ballot!

We should help him fulfill this dream I reckon.

This sort of reluctant leader schtick polls real well among the Right. There are quite a few GOP representatives who owe long?

I've been thinking that more and more, from a lot of other things he's said recently. It's like "Been PM, got the t-shirt" and away.

He appears to want all the trappings?

It was a lovely day. Key's response to Oates smacks of his "I can't remember" when asked where he stood on the 81 Tour.

Honestly, I?ve no idea?

The Standard keeping saying the same thing. I think Key really, really likes being an incredibly popular Prime Minister, and that he?

Uncle Toms? Bitch, you?re really going there?

Look at National ? I think it?s the last party to have closeted MPs sitting in it.

But please?

+1 – and it's no substitute for being an effective opposition

A couple doesn't have to dissolve their marriage to enter into a civil union with each other. They can just enter into a civil union with?

No he doesn't – not until there is a poll that tells him which opinion is most popular. Which doesn't make him much different to any other politician it's just he's more obvious/unsubtle about it.

Then there is all the talk of a new Auckland "Mardi Gras", spilling from, the lips of Auckland Central National MP Nikki Kaye. She's a nice woman, what I've seen of her I like. She's on the more liberal end of the Nationals too, but I?

They're not spineless, it's just that they want power and they know that open honest opinions will offend some people who might otherwise vote for them.

We select politicians based on popularity so we get people who become expert at being popular with the largest number?

Srsly? Wow....

Did they make coded references to 'women in sensible shoes'?

That being said, as has?

If you don't like marriage, don't get married. Problem solved. But telling other people how to live their lives? That's exactly the shit that has been heaped on the gay community by?

Jenny certainly won a lot of admiration for her attendance and her wise words at the Hero Parade [http://nz.com/NZ/Queer/HERO/] last weekend. It really does feel like things are changing for the better when the PM turns up and has a good time in the rain. She?

Ministers are expected to announce plans allowing same-sex couples to register civil partnerships in church, removing a key legal distinction between the ceremony and marriage.

The?

Doing a quick flick through?

The NZ civil union legislation did this from day one — leaving it up to individual churches to decide whether they wanted to conduct the ceremonies.?

The limits on how and where you can get married in Britain are just bloody silly.

Quite. Though to be fair, they tend to be the long tail of brutal sectarian divisions we've never had to endure in New Zealand. Though it?s a whole other can of worms that our?

And then christian churches wonder why?

True. Equated with would be more accurate.

Had two friends dancing in that show. One straight; one gay. There was something special about the event, the sentiment, the?

That's an interesting take, I'd not though of that approach.

The Standard keeping saying the same thing. I think Key?

I'm glad you have respect for Helen Clark, cos?

Although the authorised person that?

There was a highly amusing (in hindsight, anyway) article about ten years ago in The Economist about Rogernomics and Ruth?

Why would you want?

if the Marriage Act was updated to be gender-neutral, and two men wanted to get married in a church whose congregation they both belonged to, what would their legal options be in forcing the church to allow the ceremony?

This is a thorny. What I'd like to do is get?

"Traditionally" in the past – but not so much any more. And egardless,?

Its not about doctrine and?

Easily done. Repeal s8 – 10; 13(1) (c) and (d) and/or schedule 1 of?

Thanks for the link, reading now.?

They?

The only marriage there is in NZ is state marriage. "Religious marriage" is a religious fiction. What matters legally is not the religious ceremony, but the civil paperwork. And if religious?

Yes, but in the same fashion as there is an employment exception that allows the Catholic Church to only ordain males it would be quite simple to add an exception to allow celebrants who hold?

Oh, but it does for employment, and there's nothing to stop other exceptions being written into the law.

Nope. As noted previously, its restricted to two people. If you want to change that, then start lobbying politicians.

This is what 'straight up' and 'not liking political games' looks like I guess,.

I blame the PoMo.

What it looks like to me is that he is, (still), hinting to both?

I know I know, it's not exactly the same.

Yes, this is how?

They did make us take marriage counseling, which was actually worthwhile in parts, and downright hilarious in others – the class on contraception was classic.

My cousin's eldest child was conceived while said cousin and her husband were in Christchurch for their Catholic marriage counselling.

You want to ban mosques?

Just say no?

So what discomfort did Goff offer to anyone – because I sure seem to be the only person in any way uncomfortable with the pile of steaming hot waffle Phil served up.

I think you are.

Goff gave a political speech, acknowledging the need for action without being in any?

1. You're not, but there was so little in content that it's hard to break a sweat over?

Precious little, but what comfort there was, was in the direction of more reform. He said that the reforms so far were the right thing to do, but that more needed to be done.

Key went out of his way to avoid?

No, I really don?t think I will. Unless you know something nobody else does, the New Zealand Labour Party has no intention of sitting out this year?s general election with someone other than Phil Goff leading it. So excuse me for being such?

But if you keep that righteous indignation at the boil all year, you're going to be a) most uncomfortable and b) ignored. Which, I guess, will make you even more bilious. Good luck with that.

National Radio is discussing the interview I did with John Key yesterday on Radio Ponsonby because I was the only one who bothered to remind him he voted against Civil Unions and asked him if he would vote for or against if it was in parliament tomorrow.?

I'd read a Key biography, auto or otherwise.

So, who?s going to buy Key?s ?book? when it comes out?

I'll venture that john was thinking of a new style of book, something with pictures in it, maybe a centrefold of his favourite ?hot? women. A boogazine perhaps?

"The priesthood has many opportunities to express your love for your fellow man...."

Undoubtedly, someone will scan it?

Is someone willing to volunteer to read it and give us the summary in 30 words or less?

I tell you what we'll do. If someone buys it, Megan and I will record it as an audiobook. She'll use her Radio Voice, and I'll use my "Turns Thomas the Tank?

Really don't want to think about John Key and porn at the same time.

Well, it does sort of start with a "c". But please, let's not eh?

It must be fun being a child in your house.

Only for the bits with direct quotes of Murray McCully, I hope.

Can hardly wait for "I think I can, I know I can"

It must be fun being a child in your house.

Oddly, just on Saturday night, my son was sitting on the front porch with his head buried in his hands.

I'm wondering if 3D isn't the Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse.

It was using that fact as a cute excuse to refuse?

Cautious edging is Key's default position on almost every single subject of substance he's questioned on?

Its a big part of his appeal.

This would still be infringing activity, citizen. You are guilty of thoughtcrime. Remain where you are until our enforcers arrive

(But I am an unrealistic softie pinko, so there's that.)

I have elderly relatives from working class backgrounds, who were life-long Labour voters until civil unions. Now they will never, ever vote for the Labour Party again. I don't think they're unusual for their generation – so when you're as poll-driven as Key?

I'm, like, related to people too, so I get that. I'd just love it if politicians were a little less focussed on those people's prejudices.

Trust me, there are things that never made it into the books...

It's what being a conservative is all about. Especially when the population is aging (median age is nearly 37, up 2.2 years in the last decade, according to Granny), and that means more voters who?

Path of least resistance. Why bother expending energy to develop well-thought out policies with credible justifications when all you have to do is dog-whistle?

"I'm comfortable with that."

There. Didn't need 26 of the words, or the actual reading experience for that matter.

If he was a conservative he'd have opinions, he doesn't.

He is aiming for the centrist niche. Some competence, affability and an aspiration to do nothing more than reflect projected attributes from the widest possible cross section.

Done – although it felt uncomfortably like I was trolling, clicking "Strongly Disagree" so many times in succession...

I'll get my coat.

It?s times like these I wish I weren?t just a twitter flitterer.

Ok, FF, first, define ?the family?.?

What we have here is opinion suppression.

So I suggest we all speculate wildly and start all sorts of rumours about what Key's opinion is.

That'll get him to come out with it before?

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I feel like I'm all 4Chan and shit.

Have a feeling we may have swayed their demographic just a little bit. Maybe the server had an automatic shutdown if too much logic was applied during the taking of the survey.

What they really needed was an answer;

– Yes and No.

As a teacher I know something about this. :)

Or possibly even the Anonymous/Planet Chanology guys.

Overloaded by PAS readers!!! Bet ya.

Oops!

Agreed. (Although I also would prefer another?

Consent is by definition informed, without coercion or obligation and between equals in power and cogniscance. A dog cannot consent because it is not an equal in cognition or power, so the comparison is absurd and a red?

Religions, whatever one may think of them (and I am an agnostic myself), are not simply brands or franchises like utility companies.

If only they were utility companies and some kind of benign brand. I think this kind of thinking is a luxury only NZers can accommodate.

it is still?

Polly want a cracker?

Religions, whatever one may think of them (and I am an agnostic myself), are not simply brands or franchises like utility companies.

They should be, then we could sue them for false pretences. Fail to see why they should be given "protection" merely for being labeled so.

*sigh* I think someone's slippery slope is greased with bullshit. I'm going to do you the courtesy of assuming you're merely hideously ill-informed rather?

What you want is unequal. You want to cherry-pick among the alternative relationships present in?

I?m assuming both. YMMV.

ETA:
You want to cherry-pick among the alternative relationships present in society and sa y yours is ok but yours is not.
What? I don?t even, eh?

Just one."

Every single one of you who offers the marriage equality argument (and the argument that if two people love each other then?) all advocate for such a thing. It is called?

If your argument is that grown adults should be able to have their relationships recognised then by what non-arbitrary and irrational means do you draw?

Attack the person and not the argument. Logic 101 FAIL

If you'd like to engage in a rational discussion, then yes, we will debate this with you. But while you are spouting unsubstantiated bollocks, it's just not worth it.

What is your argument in favour of gay marriage again? Please show me how I got it wrong?

Name calling and slating the argument as "unsubstantiated" actually does not displace my argument, it just?

Actually, I don't think that I have to offer a "good" reason :)

By "religion", I meant the faith itself, a person's spirituality, not the organisation. By "respect", I mean that one should offer personal respect for?

No, what you did was a rather crude version of the same old ?OMFG, let the gays marry and it?s incestuous polygamy (with farm animals) by lunchtime? same old. I?m sorry to tell you this, but the House could go into extreme urgency tomorrow, and?

No-one argued for incest,?

+2 (I have two hands, and they?re both clapping)

But if we must... I'd like to thank my director, Steven, the make-up people, the planet Saturn and its rings...

But what about the animals? I demand to be allowed to?

Damn it. Going +4 is a bit like saying ?me too?. Yeah, me too.

Exactly like, as it happens.

Hmm, is that a male or a female pig?

Custard can be "consistent", that doesn't mean that it is meaningful.

My argument took informed consent from a position of equality as its basis and should anyone think that that is something self-evident that simply needed articulating, that is not the case at all. The word "rape" comes from?

However. He's really real, and he really does want you to vote for the hottest Kiwi Female blogger of 2011. What a guy.?

Is it important? After all, if gay marriage is the slippery slope to legalised bestiality I don't think the anatomical configuration of the pig matters.

NZ did away with the spousal rape loophole in the 70's. So England's not alone in having an unworthy history on the subject.

I must apologise for my ad hominem ripostes. Actually, must I?

That's such a loaded term. I believe interspecies erotica better expresses your love for your uncle?s cousin?s aunt?s daughter?s husband?s pet pig

Try a lot closer to home ? IIRC, martial rape was not criminalized in New Zealand until 1985.

BTW, a?

If one must. How about the fact that the objection would also apply to the time when the instution of marriage was created? Couldn't somebody have said back then well, so long as we're somehow into marrying men and women now, why?

?Polygamy? refers only to having multiple wives, while ?polyandry? denotes multiple husbands.

Not sure if anyone got in here first, but, ObPedant: polygamy refers to having multiple spouses, polygyny is multiple wives, and polyandry is multiple husbands. Polygamy and polygyny are usually conflated, but it?s worth remembering that polygamy is?

How about this: make a pass in the Turing Test a mandatory prerequisite for a marriage license.

Jack, thanks.

Recommended. A concise insight into their mindset.

Curbing emissions must be the work o the devil. Or it's just a fad if you listen to Bill English.

see, that was your problem

Typical Franks. He doesn't care about whether the dog loves him...

Emma's link doesn't seem to work, but this does.

My favourite so far on that page:
"Tiger Woods to Convert to Islam

Obama?s plan for Sharia Law may benefit someone. [...]"

Was there a point there, Sally, beyond you like Clark and despise Key? And I certainly hope you're not saying there's a long-service pass?

Damn it. Going +4 is a bit like saying ?me too?. Yeah, me too.

+5.