Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible Demure Lady Stroll

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  • Tamara, in reply to Deborah,

    Thanks for linking to that Deborah. That was pretty astonishing and disturbing.

    New Zealand • Since Oct 2010 • 100 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Also… I don’t want to get too deep on this, but your list of “immature” things? Is a list of feminine things. I still do all that stuff, thanks.

    Me too. I intend to be doing a lot of them _with_ Emma very soon.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Tamara,

    But I suspect that what you often saw was what looked like progressive parenting but was just lazy parenting!

    No, I couldn't accuse the people I'm thinking of of being lazy, at all. They care about their kids just as much as my parents did or I do.

    A lot of it comes down to modelling, as I've said. If I act considerately towards my children and other people, and they see me doing that with pleasure and satisfaction, then they will emulate that.

    I think it's a wonderful sentiment but I just yet have to see it happen in practice. What I have seen a lot of is children without boundaries, with tremendously sensitive parents but no sense of the personhood of their peers. However it should be said that I speak from very bitter and painful personal experience, so, grain of salt and all that.

    the approach with gentle parenting would be this: children naturally want to belong in the family and participate in its social life so if the mealtime is enjoyable and social then they will respond positively (in age appropriate ways).

    With respect, that is a very normative statement. And not just because I'd like to see you try that approach on my autistic daughter. Kids in general differ widely on this. Our eldest son always naturally wanted to eat when we did, our youngest almost never does. We coerce him as gently as we can, but it's coercion nonetheles. Because ultimately family life has needs, as does creche life and later school life, and they dictate that sometimes you have to do a thing that is less immediately enjoyable than the other thing you were doing. And there is a lot of value in learning that, because it's one of the foundations of being social.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7351 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to recordari,

    Umm, I do quite a few of them too. Just sayin'. I don't smoke

    Okay, we are obviously WAY overdue for a PAS Wham! appreciation party.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4340 posts Report Reply

  • Tamara, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    I didn't intend to give offence regarding your friends, so sorry about that. I would say that it's hard for me to know what you meant by "little shits" cause sometimes people just have unreasonable expectations of children so when they don't meet them they they are considered to be misbehaving. However, if you mean, children without the consideration for others you think would be appropriate for their stage of development then I would say, okay, so that method didn't work for reasons beyond me as I have no information and am no expert anyway!

    Regarding your daughter, I am sorry, I didn't consider that the statement was really inappropriate if someone is not neurotypical. That is definitely more complex and I won't presume to say anything more about that.

    I do realise that not all children are the same. But gentle parenting is also about being responsive to your particular child's needs that is taken into account. I appreciate there is a balance to be found between not shoehorning a child into social expectations that do not suit him or her, and teaching them how to get along. Plus, gentle/unconditional parenting does not hold that your children never have to do something they don't want to do. It is not the same as laissez-faire parenting.

    New Zealand • Since Oct 2010 • 100 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Is a list of feminine things.

    i wish to disagree that smoking is "feminine".

    my other opinions about cancer sticks i will largely keep to myself.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Che Tibby,

    I see your Malboro man, and raise you a Holly.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    are you suggesting your femininity invalidates my masculinity?

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Tamara,

    Plus, gentle/unconditional parenting does not hold that your children never have to do something they don't want to do. It is not the same as laissez-faire parenting

    How is 'unconditional' different than 'laissez-faire'?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16495 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Tamara,

    there is a balance to be found between not shoehorning a child into social expectations that do not suit him or her, and teaching them how to get along

    While I'm not a parent, I've certainly seen a lot of my friends raising kids, in varying styles. And I'm firmly of the opinion that kids are not miniature adults, and they need firm boundaries about what is Ok and what is not Ok. I've seen loving parents who set elastic boundaries being driven crazy by children who do what they want when they want, in defiance of the needs or wishes of others; I've seen equally loving parents who set firm boundaries and their kids understand that they have freedom in some things, but not in others.

    Obviously as kids become teenagers they need to be given more freedom and autonomy, but I believe that a good grasp of boundaries when they are small sets them up to respect other people's boundaries as they grow into adults.

    [and as others have said upthread, of course it's vital to help kids learn to empathise and think about the needs of other people; but I think that's hindered rather than helped by too much freedom early on. They don't have the responsibility or judgement to handle it.]

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3419 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    Me too. I intend to be doing a lot of them _with_ Emma very soon.

    I'm still not over having sneaky smokes. In fact, I expect to be having one in about 15 minutes...good afternoon all, have a great Friday and thanks for what turned out against all my expectations to be quite a good discussion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8318 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Gio, (your name autocorrects to GUI, in case you didn’t know) we’ve had our differences, but my neck hurts from nodding agreement.

    And Emma re Wham party. Totally!

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    I wish to disagree that smoking is "feminine".

    I see your Malboro man, and raise you a Holly

    And I raise you both with a Lauren Bacall.

    My hand, I believe.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2358 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones, in reply to BenWilson,

    They were still 14 year old girls listening to Wham, sneaky-smoking behind the school, giggling uncontrollably, reading poetry at the same level as anyone else their age, bitter on their parents, no clue about their future, etc, etc.

    Yes, but think for a second about what most 14 year old boys were doing then. From my memory, many of my 4th form male classmates were still into wrestling and model aircraft, and hadn't graduated to the bitter teenage angst yet. A few notable exceptions to that amongst my friends, but on average teenage boys and girls of the same age have quite different levels of emotional and social development, to match the physical development gap.

    That being said, there's more variance within each sex than between them - there were plenty of boys up to their ears in angst and girls saving themselves for Donny Wahlberg. Generalisations aren't that helpful in considering specific situations.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 791 posts Report Reply

  • Amy Gale, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Okay, we are obviously WAY overdue for a PAS Wham! appreciation party.

    ...in November? (she asks hopefully)

    tha Ith • Since May 2007 • 452 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Amy Gale,

    a PAS Wham! appreciation party

    That should take about 15 minutes :P

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3266 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I believe this is where we say 'fuck the haters', ladies (and Jack).

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3628 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Danielle,

    ladies (and Jack).

    Can I keep this? It so made me squee.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Danielle,

    ladies (and Jack)

    sounds like an interesting cocktail

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16495 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Sacha,

    sounds like an interesting cocktail

    Right, adding that to my To Do list for Wellington.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4340 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Emma Hart,

    we'll expect photos

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16495 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Emma Hart,

    What have I just signed up for?

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to recordari,

    something not safe for work :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16495 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    If we could have a Wham party, I would be very happy. So happy that I may just have to do my headbanging dance.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3123 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Amy Gale,

    Hey! I thought we were saving ourselves for a Southern sojourn?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

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