Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Bishop Brian: It's worse than you think

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  • Sacha, in reply to Heather Gaye,

    I think the problem with the march was less about the black shirts and more that church members are so… vehement.

    I doubt the associations would have been made without the mass raised fists and aggro attitudes. Still, the Black Panthers did the same salute I guess.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    "We work in secret, we exist in shadow. And we dress in black."

    What? It is Friday.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    Well, well. It looks like the latest Roy Morgan has Labour rising eight points up the polls and National dipping below absolute majority status. Cause, or correlation, one wonders?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 573 posts Report Reply

  • Susannah Shepherd, in reply to 3410,

    Destiny’s actually claiming profits from its Community Max projects.
    That’s not normal, is it?

    That was my gut reaction, too, but it depends on how the contracts were written. If it was a fixed price contract and they delivered everything they promised (quantity and quality), then there's not a problem - especially as the 'profit' was only 0.5% of the total funding.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2008 • 58 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Being able to state a clear position on humans rights and sexuality need not mean slagging off your hosts.

    Oh absolutely Russell. But they should say that in the room if they're going to say it outside. Being all nice inside, and then coming out afterwards and slagging Destiny off on Campbell Live would be hypocritical.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Destiny’s actually claiming profits from its Community Max projects.
    That’s not normal, is it?

    I would have thought that profit is part of the reason various organisations get into this business. You can meet the outcomes with less cost, you make some money. You screw up, it ends up costing you?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Kyle Matthews,

    Oh, so you're saying it was the 'time and place' at the meeting, if they were going to express disagreement? Then I agree, and misunderstood your earlier point. Metiria Turei's proposed approach is the one I would have respected.

    But I doubt the MPs' reticence in the mainstream media was because they were worried about hypocrisy. They were worried about votes.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Craig Young,

    Well, well. It looks like the latest Roy Morgan has Labour rising eight points up the polls and National dipping below absolute majority status. Cause, or correlation, one wonders?

    It probably has more to do with Goff going a polling cycle without opening his mouth and using it as a pop up shoe store.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    But I doubt the MPs’ reticence in the mainstream media was because they were worried about hypocrisy. They were worried about votes.

    Well yes. I marked down all the parties that attended.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    It probably has more to do with Goff going a polling cycle without opening his mouth and using it as a pop up shoe store.

    To quote Homer Simpson: It's funny because it's true.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    As usual, I'm woefully late to enjoy this discussion as it developed. I was less inclined to criticise the politicians for attending this "service" than others, but everything I read, including here, about Destiny worries me greatly and has caused me to rethink my initial view that this was acceptable.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Dave Waugh, in reply to Susannah Shepherd,

    That was my gut reaction, too, but it depends on how the contracts were written. If it was a fixed price contract and they delivered everything they promised (quantity and quality), then there's not a problem - especially as the 'profit' was only 0.5% of the total funding.

    Yes 0.5% plus of course the "wages" they mentioned which of course get a nice big wet bite taken out of them by Destiny..... Unless you think that Destiny won't be hiring Destiny members to do the work?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 98 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Dave Waugh,

    Yes 0.5% plus of course the "wages" they mentioned which of course get a nice big wet bite taken out of them by Destiny..... Unless you think that Destiny won't be hiring Destiny members to do the work?

    That's a really good point. Destiny gets funding for church members' wages, then tithes the wages. Hmmmm.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    It probably has more to do with Goff going a polling cycle without opening his mouth and using it as a pop up shoe store.

    To quote Homer Simpson: It's funny because it's true.

    Indeed. There's a certain irony about the good polling news arriving while Goff is out of the country and cannot possibly ruin it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Destiny gets funding for church members' wages, then tithes the wages.

    The Middle Ages could sue them for plagiarism.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Wanna bet?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Susannah Shepherd, in reply to Dave Waugh,

    Yes 0.5% plus of course the “wages” they mentioned which of course get a nice big wet bite taken out of them by Destiny….. Unless you think that Destiny won’t be hiring Destiny members to do the work?

    That’s not the point – so long as the costings for the project haven’t been padded by paying staff above market rate to take tithing into account, what the Destiny members do with their pay packet is no business of the government.

    The government pays me too, and whether I spend my salary on tithes, a 52” plasma TV, my mortgage or the Battersea Dogs Home is up to me and not my employer. I also negotiate contracts on behalf of the government, and I don’t enquire into (or care) where the “labour” element of the money goes once we’ve established a price for the job, so long as we’re getting what we’ve paid for. Contracting is almost always done through an open tender process for a job this size, although I get the impression the social sector is a little more fluid about contestability than some other parts of government.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think Destiny Church is creepy and exploitative, and the Enough is Enough march is the most despicable thing I’ve seen on the streets of Wellington. But Destiny are entitled to the same treatment as every other provider when they provide government-funded services.

    The more interesting part of this for me is the barefaced lies that were told on TV about Destiny’s access to government contracts. I ditched the church thing very young, but I do recall telling the truth being quite high on the list of stuff good Christians were supposed to do.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2008 • 58 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Susannah Shepherd,

    I do recall telling the truth being quite high on the list of stuff good Christians were supposed to do

    Er, uhm. Shall we go over the Donation of Constantin again?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Susannah Shepherd, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Er, uhm. Shall we go over the Donation of Constantin again?

    I was raised a Presbyterian. I got the impression many in the church don't count anything pre-Knox as actually Christian...

    Wellington • Since Jan 2008 • 58 posts Report Reply

  • Heather Gaye, in reply to Susannah Shepherd,

    I got the impression many in the church don’t count anything pre-Knox as actually Christian…

    Ha, interesting, I recall some churches I attending insisting same about the entire Presbyterian church (Knox college especially singled out for its allegedly liberal agenda). Wholly concur with your opinion on employee wages, btw.

    Morningside • Since Nov 2006 • 533 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Susannah Shepherd,

    I was raised a Presbyterian. I got the impression many in the church don't count anything pre-Knox as actually Christian...

    That raises interesting theological problems re: Jesus.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    How does a guy called "jesus" have any connection to the Christian Corporation?

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2937 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    Separately, does anyone else note the irony that the biopic of His Holiness President for Life Dr Tamariki could be called "The Life of Brian"?

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2937 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to nzlemming,

    YEESSSSS!!!

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    whether I spend my salary on tithes, a 52” plasma TV, my mortgage or the Battersea Dogs Home is up to me and not my employer.

    Well, it should be. But if your employer is the destiny church, they might consider it is up to them. Up to the point, as suggested, of hiring you on the basis you're a member, and hence signed up to be tithed.
    Putting it another way: would you think it ok if the Battersea Dog's Home or the NZ Govt hired you on the basis of your willingness to give them back 10% of your gross pay?

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2120 posts Report Reply

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