Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Bishop Brian: It's worse than you think

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  • DeepRed, in reply to Richard Aston,

    Also I notice some of their branches have been de registered by the Charities Commission , notably : Dunedin, Gisborne, Porirua and Kaitaia .

    Quite a few fundies have been rightly de-regged as charities - the Fists, the Sensibles, the Climate Science Coalition, you name it.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4353 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    Thank you for this disturbing information about Destiny Church's Charities Commission approvals. I can promise you that Gaynz.Com will be on their case. And incidentally, given Pope Brian's crapulous remarks about takatapui and whakawahine in the past, it'll be a long cold night in hell before he gets any public dosh under our watch...

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 370 posts Report Reply

  • izogi,

    I was watching Campbell Live's excellent 20-minute feature on the New Zealand MPs who attended the Destiny Church conference at the weekend

    Small aside, but Tim Selwyn noted on Tumeke that this originally aired on Maori TV and Campbell didn't credit it as he perhaps should have.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 431 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I am not aware of any complaints from gay people who have felt discriminated, devalued or not accepted by the organisation while participating within SA programmes or activities.

    I’ve asked a former SA member (and now out lesbian atheist) to respond to that herself, because it’s not my place to speak for her. And to be fair, having seen the leadership of my own church lie like flatfish about institutional homophobia and their response to clerical abuse, my scepticism-o-meter is permanently red-lined.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    And, I guess, if the woman taken in adultery in John 8: 1-11 could get her shit together and sin no more, the Salvation Army deserve a fair shot at proving they can do the same.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Apparently they're already getting $860,000, thanks to Paula Bennett.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1659 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac, in reply to Russell Brown,

    From the Salvos' website in Oz:

    We oppose vilification of, or discrimination against, anyone on the grounds of sexual orientation. No person is excluded from membership, fellowship or service in the Army solely on the basis of sexual disposition.

    Homosexual practice however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable. Such activity is chosen behaviour [my emphasis] and is thus a matter of the will. It is therefore able to be directed or restrained in the same way heterosexual urges are controlled. Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the Army. However, practising homosexuals are welcome to worship with, and join in the fellowship of The Salvation Army.

    How nice of them. And it wasn't just the HLR in the late 80s I was objecting to; that was just the most egregious example of their religious policies in the NZ political context.

    As for being "aware" of people feeling discriminated against by Salvos, well, I know of at least two personally who got preached at about their sinful ways when they requested services. This was a number of years ago, but as I cite above, their core beliefs seem only to have changed in terms of a little style rather than major substance - no, they won't chuck you out of the church if you remain celibate for life.

    I'm not saying that they are blatantly denying services to queer people, because I don't believe they are in Western countries. It's just that I don't feel like supporting a bunch of bigots whose entire ethos is against my lifestyle.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Idiot Savant,

    Apparently they're already getting $860,000, thanks to Paula Bennett.

    This could turn out to be Minister Bennett's Waterloo.

    Christine Rankin, Bruce Pilbrow, Brian Tamaki, ... notice a pattern, much? And we thought fundy infiltration only happened in the States.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4353 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    Just to note as an addendum, I really don't want to turn this thread into one the rights and wrongs of the Salvation Army (their belated apologies and all - I'm afraid I wasn't in NZ in 2006 and missed the momentous occasion) - my point is really that Bish Brian seems to be operating along a similar continuum, but heading towards the US-type extreme. And that social services should be maintained by the state, not handed over to more or less dodgy private organisations with limited accountability.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward, in reply to DeepRed,

    Quite a few fundies have been rightly de-regged as charities - the Fists, the Sensibles, the Climate Science Coalition, you name it.

    Greenpeace

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1721 posts Report Reply

  • poffa,

    Even if they make May Pole Dancing mandatory, I'd rather be supporting the party that holds these people accountable than those that pander to them.

    auckland • Since Jun 2007 • 26 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    The Campbell Live treatment of this issue was great: something important and stimulating after the endless Shrek tributes on One. My biggest disappointment was Shane "I'm a red-blooded male" Jones. When interviewed after the conference he said he was sure they would love any gay children they might just as much as their other children. Did I hear that right?

    Used to like Jones, used to be a Labour supporter but when I witness his laid-back, double-chinned complacency I feel that any party with him as a future leader is doomed.

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 523 posts Report Reply

  • Hinemoana Baker,

    I was gutted to see them there, all of them. I was appalled that not one of them used even a few seconds of their allocated speaking time to challenge any of Destiny's (ie BT's) outlandish and extreme views. When you watch the footage you can see Hone H in particular was on a roll - the crowd were loving him. He could have said something - anything - about his support of mana takatāpui, or indeed any of the other groups BT rails against - and they would probably have just kept right on applauding. Now *that* would have been turning the status quo on its head - and it would have made some great television.

    I'm grateful you've unpacked the Church's beliefs a little more for us here, Russell. I've spent a lot of time in the last few days trying to explain the differences between a church and a cult, but now I'll just point to your blog! Incidentally I think it was Shane Jones who said the "I don't believe a Māori could have written that" thing about the blog, not Hone.

    Thanks for the post.

    Kapiti • Since Jun 2011 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston,

    @ James you nailed the vulnerable patch very well. The Jehovah Witness's work the same patch as did the Hare Krishnas in the seventies - just depends what happens after you get back up from rock bottom

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 503 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to izogi,

    Small aside, but Tim Selwyn noted on Tumeke that this originally aired on Maori TV and Campbell didn’t credit it as he perhaps should have.

    Crazy I know, who’d think it, but Tim Selwyn is wrong.

    Maori TV was there, but the Campbell Live report was all shot by their own cameraman, Harley Peters.

    There is a relationship between Campbell Live and Maori TV, via Carol Hirschfeld, and they did once re-use some Maori TV stuff – but they credited t up the wazoo.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18964 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hinemoana Baker,

    I’m grateful you’ve unpacked the Church’s beliefs a little more for us here, Russell. I’ve spent a lot of time in the last few days trying to explain the differences between a church and a cult, but now I’ll just point to your blog! Incidentally I think it was Shane Jones who said the “I don’t believe a Māori could have written that” thing about the blog, not Hone.

    Thanks and thanks. I've fixed that mistake. I also managed to briefly have Morgan Godfery as "Milton Godfery" too.

    Clearly still not at optimum blog fitness ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18964 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    what I'm wondering is does destiny church do anything more or better than existing agencies?

    and do they have best practices in place and accountability?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 493 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Jeez, Russ, the RWC's coming up. If the camera guys have to be match fit, we can do no less. ;-)

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2161 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    I watched both the Native Affairs footage and the Campbell Live - the latter had a weird echo-ey thing happening with the sound, so it was different.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 814 posts Report Reply

  • Hinemoana Baker, in reply to Russell Brown,

    All good! Get well soon!

    Kapiti • Since Jun 2011 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Damian Christie,

    I actually felt a bit uncomfortable with the whole Campbell treatment to be honest. I know he’s got it in for Destiny, and fair enough, nothing wrong with a bit of one-eyed journalism, but he seemed incredulous that Tau, Shane and Hone wouldn’t join in with him.

    They all made it pretty clear (Tau explicitly so), they were there to shake hands and kiss babies with a big Maori audience in an election year. I wouldn’t expect them to speak out against Destiny any more than I’d expect Phil Goff or John Key to attend a Catholic Mass and use that as an opportunity to decry the church’s position on abortion, contraception and homosexuality, or that its priests fiddle with kids. Time and place.

    @Cecilia – once the Shrek nonsense was over, Close Up had a rather good piece with my mate Wallace Chapman vs the guy from Pharmac. Benefits of MySky is no Shrek and the best of both channels :)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1130 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Damian Christie,

    You know, Damien, I damn hope that John Key would refuse to set foot in Auckland Cathedral if the Bishop was still preaching the blood libel against the Jews. Then again, he's probably be a spineless twat as per usual...

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to B Jones,

    a weird echo-ey thing happening with the sound,

    Yeah wasn't it cool, as if we could hear god... just fact-checking.
    Excuse me for a second but there seems to be a weird synchronicity. You'll need lyrics for that. Just make it to the 3 min mark it won't kill you
    Emma's post, politicians making dicks of themselves and a women charged with adultery when it was the men who were married.
    Talk about cognitive dissonance on a global scale. I just ask myself.
    How the fuck can that happen?
    A weird obsession with sex passed down lovingly by our forebears.
    Gee, thanks a bunch.
    is it possible to live with so much of a variety(yep a euphemism) of thought?
    Some seem to think it so, from what I read. I remain unconvinced.
    Well there was more I wanted to say but I approached the keyboard glass in hand and all was lost.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1230 posts Report Reply

  • Tristan,

    I agree with Damian. JC did seem to be hectoring a little. The MP’s who attended didn’t cover themselves in glory much. They seemed to be trying their best to stay on side with destiny. Should have been upfront and Say I don’t agree with them on alot of things, hell i don’t agree with my own party from time to time but that doesn’t mean i don’t front up.

    I miss Sandra Lee, she knew how to respond to situations like that. Ill always remember her comment at being served whale at the whaling meeting in Japan “In my culture we don’t criticizes our hosts choice of hospitality” but the look said it all.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 197 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    but he seemed incredulous that Tau, Shane and Hone wouldn’t join in with him.

    I was too! Tau doesn't seem to be very analytical but I thought the other two might flinch at Destiny beliefs/values. Shane Jones talked about Labour's hostility to God.He is attributing a faith in God to Destiny whereas most commentators see it as a Brian Tamaki cult rather than a genuinely spiritual movement.

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 523 posts Report Reply

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