Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Bishop Brian: It's worse than you think

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  • recordari, in reply to Tristan,

    JC did seem to be hectoring a little.

    My first thought was 'that's uncharacteristic' but then I realised you weren't talking about Jesus.

    Carry on.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Cassandra,

    Well there was more I wanted to say but I approached the keyboard glass in hand and all was lost

    Cheers Andin, may I use that as my default disclaimer from now on?
    I too thought JC (JC, haha how apt) a bit over excited but whatever, don't give a shit about whether Density are getting a fair suck of the sav on current affairs shows.
    Might not articulate this very clearly (glass in hand and all) but will try. What I saw in the footage was people who perceive themselves as powerful interacting with other people who perceive themselves as powerful. Losing insight. Basking in the glow and then some rationalisation afterwards to justify getting so into it. Had a very masculine flavour to it. "laid-back, double-chinned complacency", where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, everywhere men who perceive themselves as powerful congregate.
    Very fragile interaction of course cos throats getted ripped out at the drop of a hat, them competing to stay powerful and all. Lions on the Savannah. Course they went to the weird cult ceremony. Bishop Density powerful. Source of power irrelevant.
    Happy to recant theory if Maori Women's Welfare League issue invite and they all line up to go and make impassioned speeches.

    Since May 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Cassandra,

    Cheers Andin, may I use that as my default disclaimer from now on?

    How can I say no.

    What I saw in the footage was people who perceive themselves as powerful interacting with other people who perceive themselves as powerful. Losing insight. Basking in the glow and then some rationalisation afterwards to justify getting so into it. Had a very masculine flavour to it. “laid-back, double-chinned complacency”, where have I seen that before?

    Well that’s the sum of spirituality so far. No surprises eh!
    if I may delve into future predictions for humanity.
    We are all going to have to come to terms with living on a crowded planet. So that may mean we will have to make some compromises collectively.
    Whats the pay back? Some manner of individual autonomy?

    I look forward to it.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1239 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    Watched that Campbell Live video and I have to say full credit to Metiria Turei, she was the only politician who held her line and stuck to her principles.

    Now, for those trying to draw links between the Salvation Army and Destiny Church, can I just say, as a 6th generation Sally (although somewhat lapsed and not practicing for quite a few years) that for all your arguments about homosexual law reform (which I support - just to keep that clear), I can raise you many more stories of what the army got wrong. But that's not the point.

    The Sallies are a charity providing social services. They are bound by legislation governing charities and the services they provide. They do have to meet the requirements of the government agencies they work with. If they do not meet those requirements, they do suffer the consequences.

    I am not going to compare the Sallies with Destiny Church, as Destiny has emerged as I have been in China and the only information I have comes from what I have seen online. I will only say that writing them off as 'Density' is not helpful. Meet them, talk to them, walk in their shoes, and then decide whether or not you can pass judgement.

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 2190 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Cecelia,

    My biggest disappointment was Shane “I’m a red-blooded male” Jones. When interviewed after the conference he said he was sure they would love any gay children they might just as much as their other children. Did I hear that right?

    Yeah it was something like that. I was disappointed by Jones as well. I’m sure his comment about still loving a gay family member is true in itself, but it is also weasely, and didn’t answer the question (about whether they agreed with Destiny’s views on homosexuality) directly. It could easily be interpreted as a “love the sinner, hate the sin” approach.

    Why couldn’t the MPs have simply said they absolutely disagreed with the Destiny Church’s views on homosexuality? Either because a) they actually agreed; or b) they disagreed, but didn’t want to say anything too antagonistic in the mainstream media about Destiny Church, whose votes they’re soliciting. It’s pretty vile either way.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Damian Christie,

    [Campbell] seemed incredulous that Tau, Shane and Hone wouldn’t join in with him.

    It didn’t seem that way to me. I think, like a lot of people, he was just a little surprised at how much they were reluctant to overtly criticise Destiny Church, even after the event.

    They all made it pretty clear (Tau explicitly so), they were there to shake hands and kiss babies with a big Maori audience in an election year. I wouldn’t expect them to speak out against Destiny any more than I’d expect Phil Goff or John Key to attend a Catholic Mass and use that as an opportunity to decry the church’s position on abortion, contraception and homosexuality, or that its priests fiddle with kids. Time and place.

    Even if you were to accept the argument that it wasn’t the time or place at the actual conference (which I don’t), how would it not be the time and place in an interview after the event? We can expect a direct answer to a question such as (per your example) ‘Do you agree with the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality?’ So why not here? Why was it like pulling teeth to get a straight answer out of the MPs about that issue?

    According to Danya Levy, Tau Henare “would not be drawn on whether he agreed with Destiny Church’s hardline stance on issues such as homosexuality.” As I mentioned, he also didn’t answer that question directly on Campbell Live.

    I eventually got him to state on Twitter that they held “homophobic views” that he did not share. Good, but why not say that to the mainstream media without hesitation? Seems like Tau and the others are clearly trying to stay onside with their new group of potential votes.

    But as others have pointed out, we would be surprised to see such acquiescence from MPs to a rally or event involving racism. It’s as if some forms of bigotry are less reprehensible than others.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Cecelia,

    He is attributing a faith in God to Destiny whereas most commentators see it as a Brian Tamaki cult rather than a genuinely spiritual movement.

    I always find it best to take people at their word about their faith and their beliefs. It's theirs, after all. I'm quite happy to accept people involved in the Destiny Church have real faith in their god. The mistake is to then accept that genuine faith somehow excuses bigotry. It doesn't.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    Meet them, talk to them, walk in their shoes, and then decide whether or not you can pass judgement.

    So where in that rosy little scenario, can I question their belief in a personal god without them getting biblical on me?

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1239 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie,

    Is it just me or has Destiny increased it's televangelising spend this election year? I seem to be channel surfing across them more than I recall. If Tamaki does more than dogwhistle the party to vote for might this become an electioneering issue?.

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 573 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Tim Michie,

    If Tamaki does more than dogwhistle the party to vote for might this become an electioneering issue?

    What do you mean by 'become'? I'd say 4 acting or potential MPs turning up to a religious congregation where money was being asked for and tithes being binded was already an electioneering issue.

    ''It felt weird. Weird in a good way.... I don't know, weird is weird.''

    You said it.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Of course, Bishop Brian isn’t the only one to tell his new acolytes what to think. And one could argue that having a member of a creepy cult as the senior writer for the Wall Street Journal is way, way more scary than anything the brylcreemed Bishop can conjure.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1825 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    Destiny has emerged as I have been in China and the only information I have comes from what I have seen online. I will only say that writing them off as 'Density' is not helpful. Meet them, talk to them, walk in their shoes, and then decide whether or not you can pass judgement.

    Chris, if you had seen the way they inserted their bigotry forcefully into politics during that time - including their infamous blackshirted march - you would understand the cynicism. There was a pisstake of their website called Density, which stuck for many of us I suspect.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    “Destiny Church cries "discrimination” New Zealand Herald: 09.06.2011: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10731094

    By the sounds of this, they appear to have a problem with potential takatapui clients. Why were they funded in the first place, if this is the case? Have they discriminated against takatapui clients as recipients of government funds, which would mean violation of the sexual orientation provisions of the Human Rights Act 1993? And what the *hell* does Tariana Turia mean Whanau Ora will 're-examine' this, given these concerns about vulnerable lesbian and gay Maori???!

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 377 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    Meanwhile, insofar as the Parents Inc story goes, this is what the PM stated in Parliament on June 6th, in response to a question from Social Development Minister Annette King:

    Hon Annette King: What evidence and scientific advice did he seek before agreeing to allocate $2.4 million to Parents Inc. for a parenting programme that even the Minister for Social Development and Employment said she had neither sought nor received advice on, or was she carrying out his promise that he made before the election that he would make sure that Parents Inc. got money?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Members will accept that, as Prime Minister, I am not responsible for the allocation of that contract; that actually goes through the Ministry of Social Development. But I would say I have seen that Toolbox; I have seen the programme. In my opinion it is a very, very successful programme that is helping New Zealand parents, and we do need to help parents in New Zealand.

    Hon Annette King: As the contract with Parents Inc. is yet to be signed, is he prepared to require a tender for the $2.4 million for a parenting programme now that other organisations have come forward to say they have a similar programme but they had no chance to bid for that money; if not, why not?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I think that was pretty wide of the primary question. Anyway, my advice is—I will not say that, actually. My advice to the member is to take the matter up, if she wants to, with the Minister for Social Development and Employment. I can say my understanding is that no one else provides a similar programme off the shelf like that that is so successful.

    In other words, the answer is no, there has not been any prior consultation or analysis of the programme.

    New Zealand Parliament: Questions: 07.06.2011: http://www.parliament.govt.nz/en-NZ/Business/QOA/9/e/0/49HansQ_20110607_00000002-2-Chief-Science-Advisor-Advice.htm

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 377 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Craig Young,

    By the sounds of this, they appear to have a problem with potential takatapui clients.

    And do they harbour discriminatory attitudes about providing services to migrants, based on the attitudes Russell linked to?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Craig Young,

    In my opinion it is a very, very successful programme

    Well that's OK then, as he's such an all-round 100% pure genius.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    You're going to have to tease out that equivalence there, Sanctuary...

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    Chris, if you had seen the way they inserted their bigotry forcefully into politics during that time – including their infamous blackshirted march – you would understand the cynicism.

    I was at the march, and wrote about it here. It was creepy.

    One thing that I’ve always thought should have been more widely remarked upon was the presence of a small National Front contingent in the march.

    I also saw Tamaki’s entourage in action when he attended one of the readings of the civil unions bill too. It was revolting: him preening amid his team of security heavies.

    There was a pisstake of their website called Density, which stuck for many of us I suspect.

    I for one greatly miss the regular emissions of Senior Pastor Brian Tamariki -- but his church website is still online.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    And yes folks, this is what the Welfare Working Group's ultimate objective, welfare privatisation, looks like. Not a pretty sight, is it?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 377 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Even if you were to accept the argument that it wasn’t the time or place at the actual conference (which I don’t), how would it not be the time and place in an interview after the event? We can expect a direct answer to a question such as (per your example) ‘Do you agree with the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality?’ So why not here? Why was it like pulling teeth to get a straight answer out of the MPs about that issue?

    I can understand why they wouldn't do that either. To me it would be rude to accept an invitation to a church or something else, speak one thing while there, and then walk outside and say another thing to the cameras.

    You can't go to someone's house and be all nice, and then walk outside the door and slag them off, Maori or not.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6227 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Craig Young,

    welfare privatisation

    like Mission Australia

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Kyle Matthews,

    You can’t go to someone’s house and be all nice, and then walk outside the door and slag them off, Maori or not.

    Being able to state a clear position on humans rights and sexuality need not mean slagging off your hosts.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi, in reply to Sue,

    what I’m wondering is does destiny church do anything more or better than existing agencies?

    and do they have best practices in place and accountability?

    Speaking from personal experience: it’s because a church like Destiny is allowed authority over a person’s private life that no secular organisation would ever be able to match. Imagine if WINZ or CYPFS started telling people what to do with their weekends-only the most rabid, un-self-aware talkback caller would ever back something like that. Yet, the members of Destiny are told, quite literally, how to live their lives by a man who thinks he’s specially annointed by an imaginary being.

    My uncle is one of those people who has had his life turned around by Destiny. He spent time in jail for his part in an aggravated robbery as a teenager, but is now in a stable relationship with a woman and child, which by all accounts is happy and healthy. I wish he could have been supported better by government services so that he didn’t have to turn to a cult like Destiny to make this happen, but between the blowhard enemies of “social engineering” who seek to cut back on funding and the nutjobs like Garth McVicar who would quite happily see all post-release support de-funded in favour of more prison beatings, I can’t see how that will ever be the case.

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Being able to state a clear position on humans rights and sexuality need not mean slagging off your hosts.

    Quite. When I was involved in Young Nats policy conferences we invited quite a few speakers precisely because they'd have a *cough* not entirely friendly POV -- including Andrew Little, one year. He was perfectly civil, and I hope he felt it was mutual.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Sacha,

    Chris, if you had seen the way they inserted their bigotry forcefully into politics during that time - including their infamous blackshirted march - you would understand the cynicism.

    Fair enough (edit to make it clear: I understand the cynicism better now, thanks). I remember reading about that march and thinking it seemed pretty creepy, but relying on news reports means I miss a lot of the wider context. Which is one reason I keep lurking around here - but that's a whole other issue.

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 2190 posts Report Reply

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