Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Complaint and culture

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  • B Jones, in reply to Danielle,

    Yeah, me too. Big Girl is mostly self-feeding now, but when she was little she'd take an hour and fall asleep half the time. Goodness knows how I'll keep up with her and her oncoming sister, but I suspect it will involve teaching Big Girl how to fetch the remote for me.

    An hour at minimum wage is still way more than the cost of a formula feed.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 814 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    that fining people for pedantry is a bloody good idea.

    No it is not it is rather pedantic, fighting pedantry with pendandtry leads to further pendantry and is an obsessive complusion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1199 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    Breast feeding or Bottle, what ever works at any given moment is fine.

    We found the Soy fromula was good for us espcially once she started crawling.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1199 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    the majority of the population over the age of 30 was formula fed, they’re not limbless vegetables.

    Are you talking 'world population'?
    That is untrue.
    Are you talking ANZ population?
    That is also untrue.
    The majority of our population were & are, breastfed.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Ross Mason,

    With you, Ross Mason - humans are MAMMALS for goodness'sake - as are sheep et al.
    *That is not an equivalence, that humans are JUST like sheep et al.*

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Mammal !!!

    Why didn't I use that word !!!!

    PS: Hols $%^)@ delayed......hospitals.....

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1497 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Oh timely timely shit...... Like Mama Bears, Nursing Mothers Defend Babies With a Vengeance

    Just checked out scitechdaily.com......

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1497 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    I haven't read this whole thread but it sounds as if anything to do with childbirth and breast feeding is about as political and fraught as it has been for centuries, and it is mostly about making women feel guilty and inadequate. Particularly since Premier Richard Seddon decided that it would be better for mothers to give birth in big St Helen's teaching hospitals, and Truby King decided mothers were stupid and needed 'scientific' rules, childbirth and baby rearing, has become more important for doctor power then about empowering women.

    My mother's generation had to fight against compulsory twilight sleep (anaesthesia) after which they took the baby away and only gave it back when you were awake and well behaved, then had to fight to have 'rooming in' (ie the baby in the same room), then fight for your other children to be allowed to visit while you stayed in hospital for 14 days and were not allowed out of bed (although this was good for establishing breast feeding), and against enforced 4 hourly feeding from then on.

    My generation fought for fathers to be present at birth (which is actually quite recent), and against the gowning and stirruping of mothers at birth (because it was 'dirty unnatural' process and easier for the doctors if you gave birth in a position that went against gravity, but was much harder for mother and baby), and for the right for midwife assisted and even home births.

    My children were born in the days of GP assisted births but the then poorly paid midwives were the ones who actually stayed with you during labour and the highly paid doctor only turned up at the last minute to do the stitching and sign the forms.

    As for breast feeding I think the main thing is that people assume it is easy. It is (sometimes extremely) painful and miserable for the first few weeks but once things are working well can be so convenient, and a good reason to curl up on the sofa with a book and a baby, and I have never read so much since those days. The best 'lactation expert' I ever had was an older nurse doing night shift who showed me how to position everything right, and was quietly encouraging. But I was lucky. And being an allergic eczematic sort I was determined to breastfeed as long as possible so my children were less likely to be. And they aren't.

    So it's all about power and the battles don't look like stopping soon.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 2099 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Ross Mason,

    Manslashing or whatever the phrase was included. It is never meant to be. I have found you have to be very careful with your language here because of the between the lines reading.

    Well, yes – and one really nice thing about Public Address System is that it’s a place where women can feel safe to talk frankly about tough stuff without feeling like they’re going to be told to calm their fevered ladybrains, focus on “real” issues and come back when their periods are over.

    And, yeah, I've had to take one or two hard (and well-deserved) raps over the knuckles until I got the difference between really listening to others and just waiting for my turn to speak. It's not a bad thing that PAS has helped me be more sensitive and mindful how I talk about, and to, women; to think about a lot of things well outside my experience and comfort zones. (And I hope I've repaid the courtesy in some small way.)

    Russell (and everyone else around here) should be proud that I know women who’ve said to me that PA is a good place to be when too much of the domestic interwebz just isn’t; that didn’t just happen, this community decided not to be a quantum singularity of sexist suckage.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12034 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Ross Mason,

    Trust all will be OK...

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Hilary - not least of the reasons all my younger sisters became nurses was because of our mother's tales of giving birth in Burwood Hospital (extinct just now, courtesy of earthquakes.)

    There were stupid hospital nurses (like the one that told my mother - when her youngest child (of6!) couldnt suckle - "O you're just nervous dear-"

    turned out that baby had a partial cleft palate.

    There were stupid Plunket nurses who didnt realise one of my siblings didnt talk - because he was majorly deaf. He was smart enough to just grunt/gesture &
    lead us all to understand what he wanted or needed...

    ALL institutions attract the insufficient-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    my takeaway from the story was that there is no monitoring of perinatal harms apart from death of mother or baby. So birth injury that results in severe and lifelong disability isn't counted. This is not good enough.

    //Past tense. From the story:

    outcomes like Charley’s, caused by oxygen deprivation at birth, will be included from next year in the Perinatal and Maternal Mortality Committee’s annual report.

    Inclusion in the PMMC annual report is important, but doesn't necessarily solve the monitoring problem, as the PMMC won't necessarily analyse annual outcomes for longer term trends. The "data mart" mentioned in the story will be far more important for being able to measure changes in outcomes and what factors might make a difference.

    Of course, it will be difficult to determine whether or not changes to the maternity care system have been adverse to outcomes - as someone upthread pointed out, there have been numerous changes in birth practices (and used the example of caesareans, forceps and venteuse). There's also the difficulty that people are presumably more likely to have an obstetrician if the birth has been previously identified as risky (and therefore more likely to have adverse outcomes).

    I do think it is bordering on negligent to introduce a major change to healthcare practices without any ability to monitor and evaluate that change. Apart from anything else, if such monitoring had been introduced to start with, College of Midwives would have statistics to back up its assertions about the superiority of midwife care - and if those statistics didn't back up its assertions, would presumably be able to improve its practices by looking at the circumstances in which outcomes were poor.
    ...

    Ironically she goes on about doctors doing unnecessary internal exams just for training - I had double the usual exams at my last delivery thanks to kindly agreeing to give the student midwife a learning opportunity. Was not fun. The only upside was that they explained exactly what they were looking for.

    Yes, but there's a vast difference between agreeing to give a midwife a learning opportunity, and having the exams conducted without request or consent - effectively treating you as a piece of meat. I have also heard dark rumours of medical students at Wellington Hospital having once upont a time been taught how to do internal exams on women anaesthetised for surgery, without the women's knowledge, let alone consent.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 373 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    Apart from anything else, if such monitoring had been introduced to start with, College of Midwives would have statistics to back up its assertions about the superiority of midwife care – and if those statistics didn’t back up its assertions, would presumably be able to improve its practices by looking at the circumstances in which outcomes were poor.

    Yup. Karen Guililand would have been better advised to have talked about this, rather than dismissing the whole debate. She apparently apologised to Chisholm for the nature of the two and a half hour interview, but the College of Midwives needs better representation than it got there.

    I was a bit snippy with Sacha yesterday about this, but I was aware of what had happened in the interview and the idea that Chisholm set out to frame Guililand as an "angry woman" is just unfair to the journalist.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18968 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    For Ross, even though you are on holiday.

    I accused you of Mansplaining. Not manslashing, though the fact you clearly didn’t read what I wrote rather illustrates the point.

    As Craig says, sometimes it is better to shut up and listen.

    (I was going to write a massive rant, but I am tired. Call it my random act of kindness)

    I don’t have particularly strong feelings around childbirth and/or breastfeeding, not being a parent. What I do have really strong feelings about is womens’ bodily autonomy. And not making women feel bad/stupid/inadequate for not living up to some ridiculous Ideal of what womanhood or motherhood. And not perpetuating teh idea that having a bump automatically makes someone less fit to make decisions or know what is best for themselves or their offspring.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I was a bit snippy with Sacha yesterday about this, but I was aware of what had happened in the interview and the idea that Chisholm set out to frame Guililand as an "angry woman" is just unfair to the journalist.

    A misunderstanding perhaps. I meant "frame" as in the way George Lakoff and other theorists use it, not as the police might. And I meant in the finished article, not in the interview situation or elsewhere. Guililand was introduced to readers from the get-go as angry.

    I accept that any journalist has to represent what they're given, but the Listener article shows it is possible to approach this subject without so much of a one-sided agenda. That includes those who reflexively claim midwives can do no wrong. I've worked with some of the key figures in this field even though it's not a specialty, and am aware of the section 88 politics.

    Acknowledging the power dynamics at play from many directions, not just one, seems like basic good journalistic practice. The recent lack of that is broader than any one journalist or publication, really, and it's to be expected when our political leaders and economic context are perhaps encouraging a more authoritarian 'daddy state' tone in public discourse. Could be a whole show on its own..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16771 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    manslashing

    that's something to do with fanfic, right?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16771 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Sacha,

    Probably. It certainly doesn't sound pleasant.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    there's a vast difference between agreeing to give a midwife a learning opportunity, and having the exams conducted without request or consent

    Mmm, it's a continuum. There's a certain amount of social pressure involved, when you're trying to do the right and generous thing. On the other side, natural birth advocates often take exception to women being offered epidurals during labour, calling this pressuring women - one book I read instructs readers to say "no thank you" to all sorts of standard treatments/checks. It's hard to know where to draw the line, but as Islander points out, no profession has a monopoly on kindness or bullying. That aspect of midwifery, I think, is oversold.

    Informed consent is a vital principle that's been part of our medical landscape thanks to things happening alongside the midwifery/OB reforms. There were other radical changes to our heath systems happening around the early 1990s. In an ideal world, monitoring the impact of all of these changes would have been a priority.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 814 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to B Jones,

    Informed consent is a vital principle that's been part of our medical landscape thanks to things happening alongside the midwifery/OB reforms

    We owe all those involved in the Cartwright Inquiry and subsequent establishment of the Health and Disability Commission and its code of patient rights a big debt of gratitude on that front. At a Cartwright anniversary event a couple of years ago, I was fortunate enough to hear one of the survivors of the 'unfortunate experiment' describe what the prevailing culture of doctor-patient relationships had been like. Very dignified and straightforwardly conveyed, but a real eye-opener.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16771 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to B Jones,

    There were other radical changes to our heath systems happening around the early 1990s

    Maternity funding arangements still bear the marks of that market experiment.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16771 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    A misunderstanding perhaps. I meant “frame” as in the way George Lakoff and other theorists use it, not as the police might. And I meant in the finished article, not in the interview situation or elsewhere. Guililand was introduced to readers from the get-go as angry.

    Because she was angry. It wasn’t Chisholm’s job to tell it any other way than it happened. You might be right that the Listener story offers a more balanced picture, but Guililand had the opportunity to offer a considered, balancing view and simply didn’t do that. And, frankly, the College of Midwives still hasn't offered a reasoned critique of the story, beyond declaring it to be full of unspecified "inaccuracies".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18968 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    My generation fought for fathers to be present at birth (which is actually quite recent), and against the gowning and stirruping of mothers at birth (because it was 'dirty unnatural' process and easier for the doctors if you gave birth in a position that went against gravity, but was much harder for mother and baby), and for the right for midwife assisted and even home births.

    One of the many fascinating qualities of Mad Men was the depiction of pregnancy and birth, 60's style. Betty smoke and drank through her pregnancy, obviously, but then when she went into labour Don had to sit in a waiting room and drink whiskey for hours, while Betty was strapped into the stirrups and anaesthetised, regaining conciousness many hours later to find out she'd had a boy. In some ways, the present is less creepy and futuristic than the past.

    I accused you of Mansplaining. Not manslashing, though the fact you clearly didn’t read what I wrote rather illustrates the point.

    'Mainsplaining'? Still? Really? Surely only 'hysterical women' use ad hominums like 'mansplaining'.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 902 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    ‘Mainsplaining’? Still? Really? Surely only ‘hysterical women’ use ad hominums like ‘mansplaining’.

    This is not a useful direction for the discussion to take. I presume it's intended as humour, but it does not achieve its purpose. Back off, please.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18968 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    My mother had twilight sleep to have me. In 1974. (In Venezuela. But still.)

    Still? Really?

    When people stop doing it, we can stop using the term. A winner all the way around!

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3661 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    One of the many fascinating qualities of Mad Men was the depiction of pregnancy and birth, 60's style

    Amazing episode. Mind you, many are..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16771 posts Report Reply

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