Hard News by Russell Brown

Read Post

Hard News: Democracy Night

779 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 27 28 29 30 31 32 Newer→ Last

  • Christopher Dempsey, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    So are we any closer to moving away from my meme Taxes pay for Civilisation , to something a little clearer?

    Good health, good homes, good jobs.?

    Thinking of Dionysus, perhaps Good life, good times, good memories?

    Parnell / Tamaki-Auckland… • Since Sep 2008 • 642 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Despite the side-discussion between myself and Graeme, I'm pretty happy with Taxes pay for Civilisation.

    Possibly with some minor or multiple tweaking on the theme

    Taxes pay for your [insert desirable thing here]

    Taxes pay for this (picture of hospital)

    Taxes pay for her (picture of doctor)

    Taxes pay for your clean beaches

    Although care would have to be taken. Roads and prisons are possibly not what I'd want at the forefront of voters minds. And it's an easily hijacked meme, too: taxes pay for welfare-bludging single mothers.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Rich Lock,

    And it's an easily hijacked meme, too: taxes pay for welfare-bludging single mothers.

    It strikes me that what Labour really needs is a slogan that brings out empathy in people, that gets to the idea that we provide social services and a welfare system and all the rest of it because at the end of the day that could be any of us; that when life is uncertain and things can go wrong, everyone is served by having a safety net even if they're not the ones who fall into it, because they could. And because we all do better when someone else is lifted out of poverty. Helping other people enriches us, as a society.

    No idea how to put that into three or four snappy words, though.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    It’s false electoral maths too. Because the Maori Party might switch sides if a viable coalition could be formed. Peter Dunne can always be relied upon to switch sides. That’s why it’s such a rush for the Nats to get these guys their pork.

    A viable coalition from Mana, Greens, Labour, NZ First, and Maori Party? You're kidding right?

    John Key knows he can form the coalition he's working on at the moment because it's the same coalition he had for three years, and they've all met with him and signed up already. There's no way NZ First and Maori Party are going to coalition with Mana and the Greens.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6217 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart, in reply to Geoff Lealand,

    He is Mr Opportunist supreme.

    I think of him as the Vicar of Bray, Geoff.

    And this is law, I will maintain
    Unto my Dying Day, Sir.
    That whatsoever King may reign,
    I will be the Vicar of Bray, Sir!

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2008 • 662 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    Giovanni notes a 1957 Labour poster that says Everyone - yes, everyone - will be better off under Labour.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2008 • 662 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    all together, one...

    No idea how to put that into three or four snappy words, though.

    Do unto others...
    not
    To undo others!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 5092 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart, in reply to Christopher Dempsey,

    Taxes as investment? For far too long the right have gotten away with their meme of 'tax relief' thereby framing taxes as a burden.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2008 • 662 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Christopher Dempsey,

    It’s our job to be fear, yeah right!

    So are we any closer to moving away from my meme Taxes pay for Civilisation…

    It appears the ‘me me’ problem is us!
    IRD* (no relation) says the ‘Shadow economy’ is costing the country $7 billion a year in lost tax.
    (and therefore less civilising activity…)
    I also hear anecdotally (and am trying to chase down corroboration) that IRD also loses billions in uncollected or unpursued owed tax, over and above the tax that is avoided by individuals, companies and crafty corporations.
    Just not chased up…

    The Capital Gains Tax is a much needed missed opportunity.

    ...and look at what's happening to Greece, seemingly due to large scale tax avoidance by the populace...

    *<edit> oops it was "According to new research by the international Tax Justice Network" - but IRD kinda backs it up

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 5092 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed,

    What will you spend your tax cuts on?

    Or “Tax evasion doesn’t pay.” - mirror-flipping the infamous "Benefit Fraud. It's a crime" adverts. Cue pictures of Al Capone.

    One trick that probably works is to give the unconverted some food for thought and to make them ask themselves the hard questions, since no one likes being lectured to.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4403 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    >A viable coalition from Mana, Greens, Labour, NZ First, and Maori Party? You're kidding right?

    No, I'm not. It would be a complex arrangement, sure, representing many interests, the way democracy is meant to.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8615 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    How about
    Taxation works
    There are lots of ways to pay for a civilised society ... but of all of them taxation works.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3434 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to BenWilson,

    +1

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3434 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    excise not cuts...

    There are lots of ways to pay for a civilised society … but of all of them taxation works.

    "Oh, I wish I'd looked after me tithes...
    and spotted the dangers beneath,
    all the cash jobs and dodges
    and mates rates with codgers,
    oh, I wish I'd looked after me tithes."

    <with apologies to Pam Ayres>

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 5092 posts Report Reply

  • martinb,

    As someone who's grandfather suffered terrible asthma brought on by damp housing, and who has lived in dry well heated housing through much colder winters overseas-

    I think heck yes good housing is important and can save significantly on healthcare costs.

    Auckland • Since Jul 2010 • 159 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Christopher Nimmo,

    So I just heard Shane Jones on the radio describing the Greens as a “virus” and saying that they needed to get back people from the Greens and NZ First before trying to get back National voters…

    Yeah, and lobing insults at the Greens is the way to get those who voted Green back to Labour!

    As I said earlier, Labour don’t have to do anything in particular to get back most of the vote they lost to NZ First; it will just come back naturally if Labour improve their overall performance as opposition.

    As for targeting Greens as a priority over getting back centrist voters who went National? Bizarre. Mind you, this is the same MP who thought it was a good idea to accept an invite to Destiny Church, so his judgment is questionable.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite, in reply to Steve Parks,

    most of the vote they lost to NZ First

    I'm not sure it was so direct, actually. I've said it before, and admittedly repetition is merely truthiness, not truth, but while Winston First may have picked up a chink of the Waitakere Man vote, I think that it picked up a lot of the social conservative and economic "right" vote that might have swallowed the economic neoliberlalism of the current National Party if the social conservative Winston First hadn't seemed viable once again after a brief breakup.

    My hypothesis is that a number of National voters are "Reagan Democrats" and Labour could do well to target them - not that I would approve, but WTF, it might make sense, strategically, for them...

    Of course, yes, there, are plenty of former Labour voters who are now Green voters, but how soft or hard are they? I don't know myself, even in my own case.

    I'd really like to see the results of polls that ask questions such as, "Who did you vote for before you voted for...?", "Who would you vote for if..." and "Who would you like to see go into a coalition with enter a confidence and supply agreement with a minority government of...?" Those questions are going to matter as the opposition parties jostle in the next couple of years.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 980 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Steve Parks,

    As I said earlier, Labour don’t have to do anything in particular to get back most of the vote they lost to NZ First; it will just come back naturally if Labour improve their overall performance as opposition.

    And I'll keep saying any political party that thinks voters are just going to wake up and come to Jesus deserve whatever electoral oblivion they get. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12046 posts Report Reply

  • tussock,

    taxes pay for welfare-bludging single mothers

    I've never understood how that one got going. The state recover all those costs from father of the child unless they're low-wage or unemployed, in which case the state would be paying for the kids even if they were together.

    I know, repeat the lie enough, but you can always repeat the truth in defence.

    As for Labour attacking the left, that will be the death of any chance for them in 2014, all National would have to do is repeat the "stability" meme. Of course, Labour are closer to National than they are to the Greens.

    Since Nov 2006 • 484 posts Report Reply

  • HenryB, in reply to tussock,

    Of course, Labour are closer to National than they are to the Greens.

    In respect of which of these policies is that true? It would be a useful starting point to clarify this if there is ever to be any kind of accomodation between these two parties i.e. Greens and Labour

    Palmerston North • Since Sep 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Kate Hannah, in reply to Carol Stewart,

    Oh that is the Labour of my family myth. My grandmother worked for Peter Fraser during the war, and our stories are woven with his decency. That's the kind of slogan that would work for me. But the greens' vote for me (2008) and kids rivers jobs ring true too.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2010 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to tussock,

    you can always repeat the truth in defence

    yep

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16838 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Kracklite,

    I don't much disagree with what you said there, Kracklite. My point is more that Labour's strategy for getting whatever votes it did lose to NZF back is a simple one: be a better opposition party.

    Labour's priority should be to focus on those who, in principle, broadly supported many of their policies, but didn't vote for them anyway. That's the salient problem. Second is to get those 'centrist' voters who should support their policies, but don't, to see why they should change their position.

    Getting left voters to change from Greens to Labour is not that important, because if Labour are to govern in three years it will in coalition with the Greens anyway. That is, Labour shouldn't prioritise focusing on the distribution of left-party votes, so much as on getting more votes to the left.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • HenryB, in reply to Steve Parks,

    My point is more that Labour’s strategy for getting whatever votes it did lose to NZF back is a simple one: be a better opposition party.

    Yes... and not by pandering to `Reagan Democrat' sentiments. JK did have one thing partly right: Winston and NZF is going to be a difficulty for Labour as much as for him. There is a constituency out there which is pandered to with dog whistle racist politics.

    Palmerston North • Since Sep 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    As I said earlier, Labour don’t have to do anything in particular to get back most of the vote they lost to NZ First; it will just come back naturally if Labour improve their overall performance as opposition.

    And I’ll keep saying any political party that thinks voters are just going to wake up and come to Jesus deserve whatever electoral oblivion they get. :)

    I'm not suggesting complacency. Being an effective opposition requires hard work, and is an important role (as you have said yourself). If Labour do perform this function much better this term, then most of the votes they lost to NZ First this election will go back to Labour.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1156 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 27 28 29 30 31 32 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.