(See also Gordon Campbell today)

Point. Can we call it a one-off cash gain?

Unless, of course, the price you get is depressed for some reason?

Oh?

And a budget blowout to boot. What happened to all those carefully crafted spreadsheets people were all yuk yuk yuking over? All the trust the people put into?

Instead, designed and consented?

And to think they intend to go through with this charade after admitting that the fiscal gain will be less than the value of the dividends if they were to stay as SOEs just beggars?

Right now, we have citizens who are too cold and can't afford to be warm, and we own both?

Great summary

RED FLAG!

That?s how every scam works. They get theirs now?and later?it?s too?

I've seen the Greens talking about the negative implications for greener energy policy.

It's the job of others to point out the lies. They failed to do so well enough last year and now we're reaping the rewards of their incompetence. Demand better.

These utilities will be sold to interests that support this government that simply will be used to farm US

Better question: what and who forces them to meet all these lovely socially responsible?

Is this what class warfare really looks like?

'We' don't own generation and delivery of power; we own large bits of it but not all. We the taxpayer don't own any local lines.

But govt retains sovereignty. Not owning Telecom hasn't stopped it aggressively intervening in that market. We currently have high levels of intervention?

Unless of course, they happen to be these mum & dad investors.

And does anyone see the resemblance between the following quotes?

Bill English: __"I just want?

That is an embarassing mistake on my part. Thank you. I can only plead some confusion stemming from largely public ownership of generation.

For future reference.

Maybe that ongoing intervention is creating more of a problem than it;s solving by distracting powercos?

jonkey can fix that. Close A&Es on friday nights, simple.

But that "intervention" has involved dumping money in the pockets of Telecom's foreign shareholders.

– swap (by legislation) ordinary shares for non-voting stock
– revisit regulation: Pricing and selection of electricity sources by a carbon-minimisation model, rather than?

a whimper don't take much stifling :)

And moreover, any commentators beating a drum for them are beating it very quietly. It's a bad, confused policy that will hamstring future governments.

We the taxpayer don?t own any local lines.

We did. Once. And if you want an example of how "spreading the wealth" worked when it was divested then you will find no better example. $1500 worth of line shares vamoosed into the hands of the few within days. Once the?

Not to shift the blame here at all,?

Sure they will vote National out eventually but only because they would have?

I'm heartened that more and more political actors seem to be waking up to that. Pressure on Dunne and the Maori Party as you say should be part of it.

Dudes, an election gives a mandate to *govern*. Governing may include lying, cheating, breaking promises and generally being dicks

Totally. Did anyone not get this?? The reason we have?

That is only going to make them even more profitable to buy into when they are sold off, because it means there is a?

No, we taxpayers never (or at least not in recent history) owned them. They were (and many still are) owned by ratepayers through MEDs and the like. My family was really happy to get $1500 in the mail when Transalta was created. I object to the otehr?

Not the point. What we are seeing is a concerted effort by National of attacking the opposition, a tactic often coming under the title of "Attack is the best method of defence" not, to my knowledge, a tactic used before in NZ politics?

I think you're wrong Sasha. It is not fiscal illiteracy. It is not even stupidity.

These guys are smart enough and knowledgable enough to know this shit and even if they weren't there are plenty of advisors who know this stuff coming and?

Yes, I only said there's almost a case. I would not actually advocate the sale at all, but the damage of a sale would be a lot less if we had a very powerful super fund sector here. It would still?

Unbundling of Telecom was a solution after the fact of sale; the "value" was a reflection of its almost-unregulated monopoly control of the local loop. Even NBR got on board with unbundling in the end.

There should have been?

Such opposition would require them to be vertebrates

You must live in a completely alternative reality Ben because you seem to have completely missed the 1500MW of new generation commissioned since about 1998. Given we only have about 9500MW of generation, it seems a fairly decent level?

Same way the monopolies Vector, Port of Tauranga, Powerco managed to get listed.

Quick solution #1: Whip out the anti-trust chainsaw à la local loop unbundling, sit back and watch the share?

And look where that got him.

Labour have picked their leader – now he needs to start leading.

This is fantasy stuff. And maybe Xena will come swooping down out of the trees too.

Option #1 – what loop are you going to unbundle? The national grid which is owned by the govt? It's already effectively open access, as is the local grid. #2 You'd be?

It has about $600m invested in it (shareholder equity). What the 'cost' of KB is, is a different question. PS Post Bank was privatised way before KB came into existence.

I'm completely underwhelmed that in 14 years our?

He's still around...

It might also?

Yes. I have mixed feelings about that. Investment in NZ isn't always all good. Practically, it means giving away a little piece of the ownership of NZ every time.

No I haven't got a crystal ball either. But I have seen Telecom/TranzRail-style looting here, and once bitten, twice shy.

Well the numbers are more impressive than that, but apologies in advance if they underwhelm you. We had 7860MW in 98 and in 2010 we had 9667MW so that's more like a 23% increase, comfortably ahead of demand over the same period of 20%. What would you prefer:?

What a strange concept. If I sell my business, NZ has no 'ownership' of it. Only I do. How is that giving away the 'ownership of NZ' if I happen to sell it to a foreigner?

I'd like to see you prove that was the "demand" increase. I'd also like to hear how you explain power prices steadily increasing, if supply has increased faster than demand.

What would you prefer: we build power stations for the?

In which case, the only solution is that we raise our savings to the level that more investment can come from?

A classic argument, best expressed as "safeguard your hovel and pittance – don't lose them by voting [for a previous, more leftwing] Labour"

What a strange question. If you are a NZer and you sell your business?

It's never too late. The Ozzie scheme didn't start until the early 90s. The payback was super fast, and nowadays they're only voting to up the contribution rate. It's such an obviously good policy.

POwer prices increase because the cost of power generation can change. No-one is going to build a power station if they won't get?

"Electricity demand is growing by an average of 2.1% per year since 1974 and 0.9% from 2005 to 2010."

Electricity price rises will not just be a function of supply v demand over that time frame.?

It can't, but the returns in this case have been fantastic, so opportunity cost is very low. This is hardly surprising, considering how incredibly useful electricity is,?

Quite probably, and I'm sure your current experience is providing a sharpened perspective.

There are untapped savings in demand-reduction too. Long-term energy policy is complex, but I'd say Max Bradford's market fantasy has shown its colours enough by now. That Labour kept it going does not reflect well on them?

I expect we have a very different idea of what demand actually means. Yours is based on a free market model, in which?

You seem to have?

Because the old ones are old. Most of our hydroelectric generation is old and dams have a lifetime as do the generators inside them. Old things wear out, for example my knees. If you don't plan to replace them they break.

Also because new?

If you've heard any Rand you already know.

Pretty much. You'll be paying tax in Australia, and spending your money there. You've stopped doing anything for the NZ economy with the profits from that business. You will still be employing people in?

We need to get back to that 90% and move beyond (once we have 100% of current demand met by renewables, there's more work to do replacing transport and static fossil fuel use).

If we do this (and NZ is?

That's what I suspect; I just really, really want "insider" to come out and say it (:

Your concept of returns is entirely tied to profit. This is not how I see it. The return from the nation generating a lot more cheap power is?

NZ is many things and we can debate what it is but the "set of people living in New Zealand" seems not only limited but gramatically poor. Ben seems to think it's some form of collective that has dibs on my property and is devalued by me selling?

There's demand. There's 40TWh a year of demand.

The reason the wind farm isn't being built is that it's "cheaper" to dig coal out of the ground and burn it, polluting the world with CO2.

My immediate question is: move it where? As crap as they are, the only rail links worth the name on the Waitemata Harbour?

Ben,?

Any business activities are subject to NZ laws that restrict some property rights, and involve trade-offs with other protections by virtue of citizenship (being eroded admittedly by trade deals). If you don't want folk to?

I would download a car!

I believe somewhere near Clevedon was mentioned a while back, with only a short new track needed to connect to the main trunk line south of Manukau.

Nope, I don't think that. I only said that by selling it you lose ownership of it, which is actually?

Why bother? Gold has no intrinsic use, and if you could download everything else then I can?t see the need to use it for trade.

ETA Unless you have a secret craving for bling that I hadn?t previously noticed, Sacha (:

I still think they're looking at it even more simply than that.
"If the state's finance's are roughly equivalent whether they own it or not, we shouldn't" plus "our time in?

The best metal in terms of conductivity and corrosion resistance

With respect, I have read everything you have written on this forum and had previously concluded that you were a classic Randian, having read Rand?s ?masterpeice? and concluded that she was a bitter and?

"We were actually talking about things that belong to the NZ Government before you tried to muddy the waters by talking about your own business."

Thanks. It wasn't the intention to muddy the waters. I didn't think you were just talking about NZ Govt assets alone because you?

This is true, and it's a PITA that hoarding for investment purposes makes it too expensive for switch contacts.

No-one would give a stuff if I were cashed up and sold that NZ money in return for Ferraris. But sell a business to the Germans and I'm suddenly handing over a piece of the country.

Given the number of repossessions that occur in this country, I suspect that?

Yes, and it is possible to reinvest that cash, either building a new NZ business, or overseas, thus bringing back the lost profits from the business sold. Or you?

Agreed. I'm not personally against selling those farms to Chinese owners. But when the government is selling things I think it should certainly be done in an open bidding process that gives local?

One (privatised) energy CEO isn't confident about that under current settings.

Electricity consumers are paying less than the cost of secure supplies, making the industry unattractive to investors, says the chief executive of Contact Energy, Dennis Barnes.

Speaking to the New Zealand?

Amazed to read this week that overseas advertisements by the receivers offered the Crafar farms either as a lot or separately when locals were denied the latter option.

And if the process isn?t open, then it goes to show some people living in Parnell and Dipton are still engaged in?

The risks are still there if they don't own AirNZ or the utilities. If they go bust (as Air NZ did) the government has to pick up the pieces (we can't go without electricity, or air service?

Bernie Madoff is clearly the mentor of the puppeteers who control Key.

They've found a way to make something that converts rainfall into money turn a loss. Easy, just borrow heaps, and give high dividends to shareholders. Then you're converting rainfall into debt repayment and shareholder recompense. If the stock falls,?

I was there first. ;)

I have to correct you – they are a no trick pony.

He might not be so lucky when the next crisis, such as pandemic scare, hits. The Ministry of Health has been quietly shrunk and is now operating more as a business model Health NZ than a Ministry?

http://www.gaynz.com/blogs/redqueen/?p=611

Why not actively work on a capital gains tax?

those 'back office' staff proved invaluable.

I wonder if it's because of the first 9 letters in the word ;-)

Welcome to PAS, blood.

Ryall is full of shit. My friend who is a specialist at AK Hospital is now doing two peoples work, with no?

It's SHINY!

Indeed. The usual Randroid trolls are sensing the barbarians are tearing down the gates. BTW, that's not the same Ian McKinnon who's the Wellington deputy mayor.

No. But Mana might.

could make all the difference this time if the unions refuse to roll over like they did in the 80s and 90s

Almost certainly National party trolls trying to derail the comments thread. They were so primed and ready with on-message dog whistles in terms of the politics of division that it wouldn't surprise me if they were ninth floor National Party staffers posting under different?

Best they sod off to Atlantis then eh. Any Randroid worth its salt would surely have withdrawn their invaluable talents by now and sat back and watched the world fall back to primordial slime. I mean, what?

I am sure that's not legal. As far as I know you can't make someone redundant if the job still exists. However you restructure the employment of stevedores they are still loading and unloading ships.
I?

It probably is. If not, are you betting the govt won't change the law to make it so?

If the ITF's port-of-convenience declaration has its intended effect, it'd be hypocritically ironic for a bunch of financially globalist pollies to whinge about 'meddling in domestic affairs' and 'trade warfare'.

So, let me get this right? The people of Auckland own the port. They aren't allowed to have a say, through their elected representatives, in how it's run. Instead, it's basically operated?

That's how it was structured by the Super?

?Profits attributable to minority shareholders (foregone profits) will reduce the surplus, which is partly offset by a reduction in finance costs on the reduced debt.??

?Over the mixed ownership programme, the forecast finance cost savings exceed the forecast foregone dividends,?? Mr English?

POAL aren't going to be unloading ships themselves, they are going to contract out that role.

Both are equally present and equally optional, at least in college.

Precisely. He may not be able to take direct action, but he can express very strong sentiments, if he does actually have?

Very informative.

Say I own a grocery store.

It's worth $100k. I have a ($100k) mortgage that costs me 8%, so $8k a year. (finance cost)

The store makes $10k a year (profit) , but I only draw out $5k of that (dividend). So it's costing me?

So yeah, I suspect things are getting a wee bit complicated for Len right now.

Yup, there's a much bigger picture than that 12% for him to think about, and even within?

Especially if the ITF hauls out its?

It's a bloody good electrical conductor and it doesn't corrode. Which is why computers have enough in them to be worth harvesting when they're junked.

So it does have intrinsic use. What it doesn't have is intrinsic value

__Edit: Oh snap, Richard Stewart. Read the?

It looks the part. And it looks like a show of global solidarity too.

Something Len and other Councillors, who are allegedly left (left of centre or who purport to be concerned about the plight of workers and their families) could have done is get Council as a whole to reconsider the decision to ask for 12% and Len could?

Mean while Nurses, Caregivers, Meat Workers,and it is suggested Public service,with Police on the horizon.The wharfies are only lucky in that the world's wharfies supports them. As in the states, we will begin to see Tent cities of the working homeless. Contracted out employment is no job?

To those who get locked out – look no further than the Synovate dispute, where the union cleverly turned a lockout into a bossnapping. Even the pioneering?

However – those that have been locked out by POAL have now been made redundant.

It's weirdly absent.

Edit: Ah. The alliance was noted in the Herald on Feb 17. No report on the drafting of the?

Something for the Granny's three Brians (Rudman, Fallow & Gaynor) to expand upon. Right. Now.