Roger Douglas.

Or even print and spend.

Please let's knock that 'do nothing' myth on the head. Where do you think the rush of govt actions in recent weeks came from? They've been working away at it for most?

Perople used to be incredulous at the size and variety of tasks of the MED. Imagine this beast!

I didn't say "do nothing". I do think that this is a government that increasingly ignores process, prudence and evidence. They might have had the ideas?

Interesting — and it suggests a certain coherence. I did note a lot of "everything" and "everyone".

Presumably that's part of the point. It's a good way to justify downsizing it.

You can't just remove entire government functions by changing an organisation chart.

This government knows exactly?

Just watch them.

That does depend somewhat on the way one defines economic development, but unlimited economic growth as a driving force is definitely not confidence-inspiring.

It can also depend on how?

I think the pie can grow and should grow. But I disagree that it's a completely separate question to "dividing the pie". A very unevenly divided pie can't?

This is standard for every government I have seen in NZ Labour or National led. Year 1 pass obnoxious vote losing legislation.
Year?

or a starring role in a European folktale :)

Not just a bit of tinkering here and some adjusting there
and leaving the rest to the market.

How trickle-down economics works:

A Wall Street banker, a blue-collar worker, and a beneficiary are standing beside a large pie sliced into 10 pieces. The?

Shearer's office were briefing to this effect a month or so ago. I'm guessing the party couldn't reach a consensus on policy. It seems significant?

Dear God, man. What do you call this:

Number one: our community must take care of the needy. They deserve a share of the pie.?

Well, not quite, John Key's speechwriter is much better than Shearer's.

Consider how conservatives got a majority of Americans to be against the Obama health care plan. The president had polled the provisions, and each had strong public support: No preconditions,?

Right now, they're following the money, and that means we're turning out an army of accountants.

Engineers and scientists, not so much.

Just a note we are now in the process of firing scientists from our CRIs while the accountants and management get pay rises.

The damage?

I agree that a lack of pattern recognition is a serious problem for us. If we could genuinely tread new ground, it might get better.

Sisyphus.

an interesting turn of phrase, I thought

That's been the case for at least a decade. There's just no job (or no secure job, which amounts to the same thing in science) at the end of?

Labour and others ought to seriously think about how to persuade any young New Zealanders to stay here at all. As Ben said so forcefully on Danyl's discussion, without real jobs backed by real capital?

FWIW I no longer advise students to undertake PhD's in New Zealand.

Personally I think the process stuff – regulations about toasters and companies register etc should be separated out from the strategic planning element. Although that could?

NZ isn't growing or dividing the pie – it's actually fucking the pie.

Or the good old bite and suck (as Big Ben used to advertise). The seared mouth was usually not worth the runny muck that filled it

regulations about toasters and companies register etc should be separated out from the strategic planning element.

Watch out for another leaky building type crisis in a few years after the ex-Economic Development people put pressure on the ex-Housing people to lower building standards ? all in the name of productivity?

surely 'cargo cult economics' would work better

Growing Pies so last week how about Inflatable Troughs....

Thanks to Hadyn Green

Basically he's saying that if he has hired well, then his specialist are more knowledgable and capable in their area than him and hence deserving of more salary.

It also acknowledges that in many cases there are few people?

Which always makes me chuckle; Universities have a horrible habit of creating experts and then turning them into managers.

PhDs in New Zealand are fine as long as there's no expectation of finding a job in New Zealand at the end of it. The main reason we're in Australia right now is because my wife spent a?

would honour our nation's enduring fascination with weather

cos why would we want to encourage those in NZ?

Companies are the same – "You're the best mechanic we've got, so we're going to make you the manager of all the mechanics and pay you more" – and then wonder why productivity slips.

They are all self-selected---no coercion required!

You are mixing a specific policy speech (Key) with a broad political speech (Shearer). Go back and reread any of Key's direction-setting speeches and you'll find that the language?

To be fair, that's partly because management as a skill in its own right is pretty undervalued – if not viewed with downright hostility (see comments around the horrors of 'managerialism') – by many academic staff.?

"....you're the one the most experience if you don't lead this subject team it will cease to exist....."

No pay rise and said "manager" may shortly be in charge of a national development centre as well.

i hope they blow on it first ? ouch!

Heh. It was just what came up after going through a geophysics degree. Apparently the maths is very similar whether it's above or below the ground (different constants, though). One of the theories CSIRO's modelling in the super-computers at present?

It really will be important to see the detail.

Stuff like enabling education professionals to make decisions about what is best rather than politicians.

Like an appropriate role for tech institutes, tech trainees are?

It's a shame that Social Engineering has developed such negative connotations. In almost every other context engineering is a positive thing but for some reason planning a structure for society is seen as some undesirable imposition of control.

our lives __are__?

None taken.

Indeed it is. Especially since it is actually what all political positions that don't just say the status quo is sweet-as are trying to achieve. The question is not whether social engineering is being undertaken, but simply in whose?

The word was encourage. Not all will choose that path. But at present it seems we discourage the best and brightest from choosing that path and instead channel them to law and commerce. We need some of those just not as many as we train now.

If your?

Bollocks. At the University?

He is utterly woeful at answering questions from the media. He is jittery, hesitant, muddled, indecisive and just seems unable to quickly articulate a coherent answer.

It makes him look very bad on TV and is a?

The whole thing is pretty rough,?

We do, and they get the bulk of the Marsden money, but that still doesn't mean that there are jobs waiting for them at the end of their degree. In order for the situation?

Which suggests to me we have a structural oversupply of scientists. Instead of spending more money on science education, we should?

A free market solution! How could it possibly fail? Seriously, though, if Shearer actually intends to?

We pay lawyers many times what we pay engineers. Smart kids choose a profession where they get their loans back fast

Even if it were true that engineers were paid?

I doubt 'people' describes our weird and irrational market for salaries, unfortunately.

The actual per-EFTS government funding rates are here: http://www.tec.govt.nz/Funding/Fund-finder/Student-Achievement-Component/Rates/Universities/ (that links to the university rates – there are?

Engineers get more in some industries abut not in others.

I'm sorry Kier I just simply disagree with you that the "market" will sort?

Watching Key interviewed on Campbell Live – the correct answer is:

Yes you can, and you can do that and more – they are embarking on a massive "change management process" of indefinite goals and no desired outcome?

Again, what? Comparing a PhD working in CRI to a lawyer in private practice is so not apples to apples it's mad. PhD lawyers working in academia will?

To be fair, they are promising 10 key targets – which will have the same distorting impact as has been seen in health already. Those of limited intellect prefer stuff they can measure. Makes em feel more in control and relaxed, I guess.

Let's only have rich scientists!

Yeah, that is somewhat of a downside, although no doubt scholarships and suchlike will be available for the bright but poor. But that's not an economic problem --- which is how people are attempting to justify these policies.

And that?s not in a bad way, we need them too. The apathetic are necessary also. That?s the 2 tiers that balances society. Those that can do and those that do. Equality.

Not so sure about that. Other comparable nations like Ireland have gone pear-shaped, and Singapore is a transport hub that is technically not a liberal democracy. Fonterra is something of a Clayton's Nokia, so it makes sense in context.

I presume you are taking the piss. More law students produces no economic growth at all. They don't export, they're quite likely to?

Not a lot of room for Maori in there,?

At a personal level, that is true. You can make plenty of money as a person doing other things. But at a societal level, if your society is not making things, it's?

The perfect antidote to anyone who invokes the infamous ?How Taxes Work? urban legend.
And as discussed before Red, snopes simply tries to find the author of this annecdote, rather than call bullshit on it.

Accountants are engineers just as much as a guy designing a physical structure; they just work with a different type of material.?

Perhaps we have a fundamental difference of opinion on economic facts, deriving from a fundamentally different way of accounting for them. I'm not sure, I don't really know your position.

I?

Nah, it's because when talking about economics, one has to generalize. It's a huge topic, and I'm already talking at far more length than I intended to. Adding caveats to everything?

Yes, Switzerland is honest, independent and incorruptible, and not at all a place where people of other nationalities hide their money.

I thought so. This is a very easy discussion to get into cross purposes over.

What is the `real' economy?

Big question. I can't formulate exactly what I mean with that right now. I'm thinking it's a straw man on my part, particularly since you say now that?

When I was extensively involved with the legal profession (VC funded startup in the late 90's) there was a great deal of expensive work by both sides in us explaining to the lawyers what we actually wanted to achieve and avoid.?

so, last century's economy then?

Of course! (but I would say that)

I also know plenty of bad ones. Some of them work in big firms. Some in small firms. I imagine in any occupation or profession you'd find useless people.

I guess we'll see. It's a bit early to be calling the 21st century economy.

That isn't controversial. But the question of whether it was actually good for those economies,?

If you are talking about the Western world, then I'd dispute that it is becoming more neo-liberal. The?

One can never quite escape one's past...

Might have to agree to differ on that. It's not the self-image of neoliberalism, but it's what a world run by neoliberals looks like. I'm not going to be the one to say they're never hypocrites, or that their position is at all consistently applied.

I sat in on a private discussion of the ideas in this speech at this year's Kiwi Foo Camp. It was Shearer who ordained the discussion, but Cunliffe who demonstrated a grasp of policy and a striking articulacy in talking about...

Did RB contribute to the speech writing???

Nah. I actually have a picture of the room: David Shearer and David Farrar are sitting next to each other! About 40 people there, from various sectors. Shearer had the innovation theme in mind and was looking for ideas.

I observed for about?

Heh.

It WAS a a timely release of local body debt wasn't it.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10792674 | Local Body Shakeup

Truth is stranger than speculation, evidently.

things like the large amount of social housing Christchurch City Council provides.

Well, they can sell that to help finance the earthquake damage can't they. It's a no brainer. ....for those with no brains.

The Hooten was heard on Nat Radio a few weeks ago making comments about local v?

Hastings Mayor Lawrence Yule?

Local government always answers to central. Worth remembering when considering who to hold accountable for various things that involve both.

That element has major implications, yes. The 2002 Local Government Act explicitly added social and cultural responsibilities to the environmental and economic ones that had more commonly been the focus of councils for decades. That change has been?

Australia beckons for sacked workers

Yes, it's all numbers in the end eh?
"And what are you feeding your kids tonight?"
"I think a plateful of threes and nines might be nutritious"
As?

Today Bronwyn Pullar says that Michelle Boag was at the meeting.

The report says it occurred 1 December "

when two senior managers met with?

Because, as I have attempted to explain to you, it isn't true.

Shearer is a stealth candidate for the Americans.

Isn?t?

Yes, the explanation came some days after I posted that. And I'm not alleging any sort of conspiracy.

Thanks. I only mentioned it to illustrate a point about the respective personal styles of the two men, but I'm rather regretting it.

Oh, we all do that. So come and join the rank and file. It can be fun. Honest.
jus' sayin' ;)

troublemaker :)

He insists regional economic development is a "public service" but also seems to be vaguely saying such things could be done by central govt including?

That's really all you need to say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/mar/19/david-cameron-sell-off-roads

David Cameron unveils plan to sell off the roads

Sovereign wealth funds to be allowed to lease motorways in England, says prime minister

Anyone offering a pool on when this becomes 'long considered National policy'?

Yeah, quite. As usual, they have a policy slogan and no real idea what it means*.

*Nothing bad, middle New Zealand. Promise.

Curiously enough, Maurice Williamson was touting such a policy in the months before National was bundled out in 1999.

A clayton?s Livingstone vs Thatcher, methinks? The spectre of the Sydney Cross City Tunnel haunts. Build, bankrupt, bailout, rinse, repeat.

That is utterly appalling. One thing the CCC has always done well here is social housing. It would be tragic if they stopped doing that. It's not like HNZ can keep up with demand.

This would be seen as a particularly radical step because it would be a form of hypothecation ? allowing a stream of revenue to be directed at a particular project.

New Word: Hypothecation. Like an Auckland Petrol tax.

And surprise, Treasury don't like it.

Why do people want?

If it's really only about whether local or?

Unless their 'daddy knows best' brigade wins the day. Respect my authoritah, etc.

It really doesn't seem that far off Thatcher vs the Greater London Council on a nationwide scale.

Ms Wade-Brown was sceptical about a "Masterton to Miramar Super-City" but said the Greater Wellington regional council should be scrapped.

Local Government New Zealand president Lawrence Yule understood concern over the level of rates and debt increases but said that was mainly spent on infrastructure.

"We've got to have?

The LGA also explicitly requires them to cooperate with other organisations including central government agencies to deliver outcomes in their area. Only without changing the power?

Councils localise coordination of services, to achieve local results they are accountable for. And as Lawrence Yule mentions, they end up funding or delivering some that neither government nor private sector have the stones to honour.

Maybe Smith is?

They could if they were adequately led and resourced. That's the problem, as it often is.

What i would really like Nick Smith to answer is, why is he implementing act party policy? Act polled down in the low single digits so there is hardly a mandate for this kind of policy.

Also – if Mr?

That's actually the Minister's job. Yule works for the equivalent of any peak sector representative organisation. We shouldn't expect LGNZ to say Council CEOs are overpaid unless most Councils have said that's their position.

It'd be as unexpected?