Seriously, this a place where?

The music, and in Sinatra's case the hotness? Still happen. The hysteria? Not so much.

Yeah, it's the same phenomenon. And watching those girls queueing up to catch a glimpse of One Direction, who can't speak? Makes?

We know that in families and countries where sex is openly discussed and less taboo, teenagers have sex later, rather than earlier. I'm not saying they'd actually need to?

So in homes where sex was discussed openly and frankly girls wouldn?t go doo-lally over pop stars? I?m unconvinced. Also, you?re exercising a degree of judginess about that that I?m not used?

I know what you mean. But is it experienced by the individuals involved as 'mass hysteria,' or is it just a conglomeration of individual mad passionate crushes? The sort of random cathexis (jargon alert!) that helps one figure out what pushes?

Not that he wasn't hot, in a 'I will eat fried eggs off a hooker's ass' kind of way, but in implying the non-hotness of the Beatles, well... you impugn my religion at your peril. Heh.

But and also: interesting to think what would happen to that sort of group cathexis onto magnificent strangers in the Sexy Wonderland Utopia. Would there be mass media gods and goddesses, inaccessible Olympian crushes, or?

Someone told you about the captain of the Canadian Women's Curling Team, didn't they?

We never stop fancying celebrities. There's not a lot I wouldn't have done for with or to George Michael when I was a teenager. But, yeah... that big a proportion of the population?

Although I do think adolescents – and grown ups – of whatever sex will still have their celebrity crushes. But yes, less unattainable attraction/sublimation and more healthy action would be a fine thing.

In my utopia, entertainment business operators would be checked regularly by the Labour Dept to?

They'll be tournaments where you win a luxury SUV for a hole in one.

You have! I now want to read the full-length article version of this excellent contribution. Seriously, kd lang, Paul McCartney, spot the difference. (And I also now want Justin Bieber to record a version of?

Well, not if moppetry is what's being actively marketed to them, no. I'm struggling to come up with a male singer marketed to teenager *girls* as aggressively masculine. There must be?

Punishingly hot. On ice. A nice combo!

Going back a fair way: Mick Jagger. Although you're right, hyper-masculinity is usually marketed to teen boys (even if some teen girls might also be into it on the DL).

Social and biological reproduction have been a political focus in all cultures for reasons beyond the personal so yes, there will always be other elements to take into account.

Once upon a time, Billy Idol? As the more testosteroney version of Adam Ant et al? The trouble is, they all look so camp and therefore fey from outside the hormonal bubble.

Many a girls' comic?

Probably depends on if she's ovulating at the time – as well as all the interesting culture theory stuff, naturally. Would love to see similar focus on the options for boys?

I have to put it down to 'safety', that such people allow to express their sexuality in ways which are entirely harmless, directed at the unattainable – and thus non-productive. Creating?

Girl group songs. 'Symphonies for the kids', 'the little girls understand': so many of those songs are about a hot, 'bad', masculine guy and she just can't help herself. The hyper-masculinity is there, but the girls are telling *each other* about?

Occupy?

I'm thinking Usher, early 2000s.

Teh awesome.

Not all that many — Elvis would be the outstanding example, but he was pretty too. But 13?

While I'm not exactly an expert on the subject, weren't most boy bands of the last 20 years carefully constructed to include at least one "bad boy" alongside the pretty ones? Not so much?

Which did actually have its share of young teenagers hanging around gazing wistfully at people. There was also a certain amount* of youthful hormone-driven behaviour in the older teenagers.

I'm torn between the idea that teenage silly-sexuality is a product?

Beautiful. Existing in that wonderful meta-zone, bebians are an ironic meme.

Scary Spice

As one such teenager, I can honestly say that part about it really sucked.

I suspect that much of the bile that gets sent the way of Bieber is in part because he doesn't act out the narrow definition of what a successful male (at even a young age) is supposed to fit.

My mother cruelly told me that sex was much more enjoyable when you loved the person you were bonking. I missed out on much meaningless cheap sex because?

Oh I dunno. I recall being one of many in a frankly fucking awesome Violent Femmes gig in Wellington (1992?). The energy in that crowd was incredible. All singing along ... they'd hold off on a line, we'd sing, they'd laugh,?

Yeah, but you'd sing, right? You weren't screaming so hard you couldn't actually hear any of the music.

dancefloors

"My mother cruelly told me that?

I like the idea of a utopian, inclusive, sex-positive society (even if I quibble over some of the details), but I'm not sure how we get there. A series of thousands of minor steps, or a sexual revolution. The former seems more?

"All other things being equal" is a pretty bloody big caveat though, isn't it? And doesn't it basically make that statement both impossible to disagree with and basically meaningless?

I am seriously considering moving on to this next week. I have some ideas. So, I'm betting, do you guys.

I'm looking forward to male hormonal contraception being widely available.

The best birth control in the world is for men. But yes,?

squeegee-mops

The music was very loud.

I've tut-tutted with the best of them about stupid teen obsessions, but it occurred to me that one of the most memorable experiences in my ever-lengthening life?

22nd & 23rd June, 1964. :)

I have a genuine question. In a sex-positive utopia, would the content of pornography be any different?

Have to be a website then, I guess.

We are talking Utopia here...

What do you consider to be the "content of pornography" now? Does the image in your head include any same-sex material? If not, why not? Any laughter or playfulness? Brightly-lit stuff? Tattoos? Affection?

It's not hard to find?

Oh god, don't. I made the mistake on Saturday night of proposing that Caitlin Moran might not be completely right about everything?

Yes, my image includes all of that. But it also includes stuff that seems to contain no?

Do you need a hug, darling?

One thing I will say, and from John's reply, this isn't directed at him. I am not prepared to have The Porn Argument with anyone who is not prepared?

Not meaningless ... just mean.

Note remember my mum was smart and experienced and I was still a pretty geeky introverted?

Ok I should clear up any idea?

Right, here we go.

We only get the sublimely produced porn. All we care about is that all participants are participating freely, in safe conditions. There are no questions of content once consent issues are settled.

And... I?

no stranger to shagging since.

I see that you've already covered some aspects of this, but I'll add my piece anyway. A lot of good sex involves laughter, playfulness and affection, and when?

No! All the sex must be nice, and...

Dammit, that was actually how far I could get into that whole "happy spiritual loving" thing before I was?

Emma carefully made sure asexualism was mentioned – for which I deeply thank her- but obviously there is no pornography around that is going whet an asexual's
appetite-

o, foood? Did someone just?

My mother, an actual fan of the music (at least until 'they went all strange and dreary', in her words, after 1965)?

kittens?

Taste relies on inclination – so yes, there is material to suit all tastes, including none.

+1

I did a lot of Latin Dance for?

I've never done it (I suspect I'd lack the skill), but like a few of us here, I've experienced the sheer, transcendent joy of a Friday night dancefloor.

Exactly!
With- for some- subliminal moments. For many ? real unambiguous joy-
there are major human/ major pleasures which are not actually sexual in origin but which can be deeply associated with sexual pleasures.

But ... didn't you know that sex is degrading unless the couple are looking lovingly into each other's eyes? Although that can be difficult if?

You say that like it's a bad thing...

I loved Latin. I love dancing – I'd almost forgotten how much. It's?

I do know what you mean: the sheer joy of movement can add?

+1000

Bastards

When you come visit my mother and her wee dog – and me – we will welcome you all!

Nau mai, hoki mai! n/n/Keri

Yeah, don't do that. I did it once, and got hate mail.

She's not disturbing. She's kind of awesome. (Funny, smart, talented, etc, etc.)

She doesn't mind porn. She thinks the porn industry is problematic – as does anyone with a brain. However. She says things like this:

Brazilians (the wax jobs,?

It worth noting that the time you are a teenager is most likely the time your body is the most wonderful. Nothing much hurts, various bits hang where they ought to. So why can't we?

Word. I was going to make that point in the original point, but I had Said Enough. "but you have some bloke who?s not listening to what you?re saying, he?s just looking at your legs." Why?

Quite, and I know this term raised all kinds of hackles but you know?

I'm with Megan on this one: a lot of what Caitlin Moran says is?

There's a common argument that says something like "Pre-pubescent girls have no pubic hair, so removing it from an adult woman makes her look like a child. Ergo, the result is, at best, to treat women like children, and at worst, a?

And a corollary of that Islander might agree with: If you're NOT interested in sex, that doesn't mean you're somehow broken or a frigid God-bothering prude or must have been sexually abused. Seriously.?

Perhaps, but can I suggest a guideline for a sex-poz utopia? (And I mean this as a general comment with a side of owning my own penis-privilege, not a bitch-slam on you, Tom.)

__When women talk?

But they don't, you get that, right Ben? The law is probably the least influential factor in people's sexual decisions.

But I'm not the most shy, retiring?

This. So much. But not as much as "Fifty Shades of Grey is an embarrassing piece of shit and the sooner people stop talking about it the better."

And that is her exact argument, and she's not wrong, that the thought?

But that?s kind of what I was reacting against. The idea that dancing is an analogy or substitute for sex. Sure, it can be sexy, but I danced with a lot?

I'm more interested in the sheer craft of it all – because having heffalumped my way though a dance class or two as a child I know how?

This was the gist of my argument. It tends to extend to not just telling women what they're allowed to do with their pubes, but guilt-tripping those who don't obey.

You are wonderful, Craig. :-)

And to take a slight tangent, when?

Yeah. And how is that different to telling women not to wear short skirts (which she does, anyway)?

As far as I can tell, if you're willing?

Complicated situation: I had a conversation with a woman?

Which is where, and I am not a parent, but education and communication come in, right. And teaching that "what you want?

Can 'erotic' be about more than sex?

I agree with Emma that the?

Did you just call me libertarian? Dude.

But, yeah, I dunno. I tend to think that there's as many kinks and desires as there are people. It's in the finding people that share them that?

For me, it absolutely can. Which perhaps is being all 'libertarian', but actually I'm calling bullshit on that, because part of living together collectively is accepting that our individual experiences are different, and making space for that.

But yeah, I find the idea?

The answer to this is the same as to Max's concern about young men only having seen waxed vulvas, in porn. It's?

Totally agree, Tom. As Sopranos?

Of course I do. Everyone is afflicted by it. I haven't lived out every fantasy I've ever had, nor done everything I would ever like to. Not only because I haven't had the opportunity, and because many of them are actually impossible,?

Me too! I've always wanted to be a boat captain.

Yes, but who's making the space, and how? I'm hearing a lot of 'me' here.

We all are, for each other. What I demand for myself I give to other people.

Actually, I don't make the default assumption that anyone knows their own fucking minds.

I don't follow the precepts of any of the great psychological dead-ends of the 20th Century (Freudianism, behaviourism, Marxism). I'm also unconvinced by either the "just?

F'r'instance?

agreed

Height and curviness, at least, have gone in and out of fashion over the centuries. Just like body hair has – for men and women – over the last few decades. But there's?

You say that like it's a bad thing. :)

Individual decisions don't magically create social change. I'd prefer a utopia with some chance of success.

I say that like it's a separate thing.

Individual decisions don't magically create social change.

What does create social change, if not individual decisions?

Have shorter men been attractive in some cultures?

Collective political action. Conversation like this.

Collective political action doesn't just happen. It happens because individuals work to make it happen. In this field, it happens because individuals put themselves at significant social and emotional risk to make it happen.

Have shorter men been attractive in some cultures?

Certainly men?

together.

Perhaps I need to be a little more specific then. How about this:

When women talk about their own experiences, bodies and sexuality on-line, make the default assumption they're speaking in good faith.

no-one?s desires and?

What was fascinating was how much gravity and hair existed back then. Those women were just as, if not?

Absolutely this.
I am a very?

No, I was careful. I really meant people can do whatever they want within the law, which leaves an enormously wide number of possibilities. That doesn't mean they will do it. They may never try hard enough, or be lucky enough (or?

**It certainly is amongst bonobo! But then, bonobo ? unlike their chimpanzee relatives- use sex/sexual pleasure to heal animosities in their societies. Or just to comfort one another. It -in all it's awesome variety-is not just for procreative or dominance purposes.

I?

bandname

There are times when we enjoy sharping our personhood against someone hard and unyielding, maybe someone mean or self-involved, we want to learn something about limits and ourselves. How much we can take. Who we are. Who we are not.

You can have connection without?

I think it's essential.

Oh hell yeah, though I do think it has?

not that there's anything wrong with that.

Does it ever. Alexa is highly original and in my opinion, she is doing her best work right now. She takes advantage of everything that the stage has over passive entertainment, bringing interactivity, cognitive challenge, dialogue,?

I for one am all for sparkle-pony-ness! In my utopia people have plenty of fun and silliness along with the equality and being kind to each other.

Heh, you don't get much of that at an Alexa performance. Something about the edged weapons she is frequently wielding draw people's minds back to pointed messages. She loves to tear at the boundaries of performance. I remember one show spilling outdoors because?

Not a good example. He always made certain he appeared taller than he actually was.

There are some cultures where the dominant group was short and hence shorter men were desirable.

But the problem is that as you improve diet and hence health,?

Still thinking a lot about exploitation as a result.

Honestly, there's so much wrong in Roiphe's argument that I don't really know where to start – perhaps with the idea that someone's sexual tastes re: top/bottom reflect their power position in other aspects?

One factor that's absolutely culturally mediated?

Not saying I agree, but isn't that routinely trotted out to explain masochistic CEOs/politicians?

Yes it is. Also, I hear poor people are lazy.

I talked about power dynamics in my first BDSM column. On an individual level? It varies from one individual to another. The only one I can really speak for is me. And that's a bit personal.

There is research, Roger. I'm about to run out the door and it'll take me a wee while to find it again, but there is a BUNCH of 'find me a cause' research about BDSM, and all of it says "Um, nope, it's not?

I think this kind of research, if it were still?

I linked to this repost of a Clarisse Thorn column on Twitter the other day, about whether BDSM is an orientation?

It doesn't seem to be anything other than anecdotal evidence plus a vague plausibility argument, but at least this?

I do like that column. It makes sense to me that what is an orientation for some?

Exactly! While the "born this way" idea has been a focus for some, who cares whether it's an inclination, an orientation, a predilection or just a whim? No-one should be telling?

Or maybe they just want to restore some balance in their?

Which, of course, is the exact opposite of the CEO myth. This is: people take the same?

shaken, not stirred

And as others have pointed out with some asperity, if "mommy porn" (i.e. "OMFG, mothers lady-wank too!") is?

A lot of people would say, but romance is what women want, they like relationships. It?s men who like sex.

Yes, this attitude makes me cross, too.

And in other news, look forward to?

All I'll say to that is it's all fun and games until the sex-bots get religion and nukes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duGJwBWEljM&feature=related

Exactly. I want behaviours to be as legitimate as tendencies.

:-)
Slayage with a smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-t0ko4bbKw

I'm going to info-dump a bit now. This is the kink research aggregation site I was supposed to dig up for Roger yesterday. And this youtube clip is largely stuff I've kind of said,?

And that video just lays out something everyone?

There is only one possible response to that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voB5ZknmNRw

Though surprisingly, no-one's mentioned anal sex yet.

Whoops.

Not sure how anyone would extrapolate into a belief that I?d put?

The thing about D/s play, and Clarisse Thorn has written on this recently, is that it's trust-based. And every scene or session that goes?