Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: A matter of conscience

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  • Islander, in reply to Sacha,

    .

    Report

    I cannot get the site to copy Sacha’s earlier comment.
    Silly comments like ”:bandaids dont stop bleeding” DO NOT FEED HUNGRY KIDS-
    if they are in your vicinity, and you have spare food, your bounden duty as a rational human is quite simple – help feed the kids-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Islander,

    do whatever makes you feel better.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Sacha,

    I do what makes a difference, what helps others - If what was just makes ME feel better, I'd be out there, hunting whalers-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Islander,

    I do what makes a difference, what helps others – If what was just makes ME feel better, I’d be out there, hunting whalers-

    My turn to add a +1000

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 2190 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    AE!

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Lilith __,

    Now that my wife is home and I can write more than the occasional quick sentence...

    It is strange and troublesome that people who would not normally defend moral relativism defend things in their holy book that most modern folk would deem to be completely immoral and utterly abhorrent by pleading "product of their time and place". So all the law that Abraham knew was blind faith in and unflinching obedience to God...

    I take some comfort in the knowledge that anybody threatening to kill their own child today would be locked up for a long time and given the treatment they need. 'Tis also nice to hear this 'progressive revelation of God' and look at history and see that for all our 2 steps forward, 1 step back, 3 steps sideways, and the occasional drunken stagger, our species has generally tended to progress from 'nasty, brutish and short' to at least a veneer of civilisation and gentility.

    Still, even the very short span of this century so far has thrown up plenty of evidence that we're never more than a couple of steps from total barbarity. I could go on, but I fear I might finally convince myself to disappear up a mountain and go feral, ancient Daoist poet-style.

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 2190 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Sacha,

    No but if we really want to fix the problem, letting the heartless pricks off the hook while we go feed the poor is not a sustainable answer. Band-aids don't stop the bleeding.

    It's worse than heartlessness, if various comments in the original article are anything to go by. One commenter in a Guardian article on potential unrest from the Great Recession summed it up best:

    Sweet Jesus. No one is going to fix this mess, are they? No politician seems up to the job.

    This week I heard a pefectly sensible guest on Radio 4's Moneybox, use the phrase "when the balloon goes up" without any sense of irony whatsoever. I've recently read three level-headed articles predicting the end of the "marriage of convenience" between capitalism and democracy.

    I'm scared. Proper Weimar Republic scared.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4431 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    "at the top.
    there is no after:
    at the bottom,
    there is no where:
    when & what
    are your questions-
    who is your answer?"

    (My lengthy koan...)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    I fear I might finally convince myself to disappear up a mountain and go feral, ancient Daoist poet-style.

    My only contact with Daoism was a book called The Tao of Pooh which I read as a teenager. So someone mentions Daoism, I think of teddy bears. :-s

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3494 posts Report Reply

  • Tim McKenzie, in reply to BenWilson,

    But Lewis misses a few things too. He doesn’t note the position which denies that morality is real at all, perhaps he hadn’t even heard of it.

    I think he does address the position that morality isn't real; he addresses it by trying to demonstrate to the reader that their beliefs aren't actually consistent with the position. Maybe he'd never heard of anyone whose beliefs really were consistent with the position, but he certainly seems to have heard of the position.

    Most people would tend to agree with this – they find it inconceivable that God would love immoral things, that he might, for instance, fully endorse sexual violence against children. If he did endorse that, it would not make sexual violence against children right, therefore his endorsement is not the source of the rightness.

    Lewis agrees, from The Poison of Subjectivism:

    if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the "righteous Lord."

    Lower Hutt • Since Apr 2007 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Tim McKenzie, in reply to Lilith __,

    Not to mention the terrible things the OT God does to people.

    Poor old Job, who was tortured in every way possible to test his faith. He endures the gratuitous killing of his wives and children but keeps his relationship with God, which is obviously the most important thing.

    For a start, the book doesn't describe God doing horrible things to Job; it describes satan challenging God to do horrible things to Job. God declines to harm Job, but allows satan to harm him, within limits.

    Secondly, only one wife is mentioned, and she isn't killed.

    Lower Hutt • Since Apr 2007 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Tim McKenzie, in reply to Islander,

    I certainly dont agree with that comment of your’s – it is in opposition of what I understand to be so-

    If you truly don't believe in absolute morality, then why do you say things like

    if they are in your vicinity, and you have spare food, your bounden duty as a rational human is quite simple – help feed the kids-

    ?
    You certainly sound as if you believe that there is an objective moral imperative to help feed hungry children --- not merely an imperative that applies in contemporary New Zealand, nor merely a subjective preference that you hold.

    Lower Hutt • Since Apr 2007 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Tim McKenzie, in reply to Islander,

    Is it able but not willing?
    Then it is malevolent.

    Which is more malevolent: to allow evil that you can prevent, or to enslave every creature to prevent them from causing any evil?

    Lower Hutt • Since Apr 2007 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Tim McKenzie,

    the book doesn’t describe God doing horrible things to Job; it describes satan challenging God to do horrible things to Job. God declines to harm Job, but allows satan to harm him, within limits.

    Secondly, only one wife is mentioned, and she isn’t killed.

    I stand corrected about the wives. Only Job’s 10 children were killed! Of course he can have some more later.

    God allows Satan to test Job’s righteousness by killing of all his children, and taking from him all of his livestock, and by harming his body…I don’t think this is the action of a loving God.

    And all this because Job's such a good guy! His kids are collateral damage in a round of point-scoring between God and Satan.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3494 posts Report Reply

  • Tim McKenzie, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    Adam and Eve only knew ‘eat all the fruits and seeds you want, just not the fruit of these two trees’, and they blew it.

    Only one tree was out of bounds.

    Abraham and Job knew only unquestioning faith and total obedience no matter how shite the situation or ridiculous the divine order.

    Abraham famously bargained with God, and to call Job "unquestioning" is beyond ridiculous.

    Lower Hutt • Since Apr 2007 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Tim McKenzie, in reply to Lilith __,

    Only Job’s 10 children were killed! Of course he can have some more later.

    Interestingly, although Job ends up with twice as many sheep, camels, cattle, and donkeys as he started with, he ends up having only ten more children, not twenty. It's not spelt out, but the impression I get is that the first ten children still count.

    His kids are collateral damage in a round of point-scoring between God and Satan.

    But if death isn't the end, then the children might be enjoying life somewhere else, and not complaining at all.

    Lower Hutt • Since Apr 2007 • 107 posts Report Reply

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