Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Fix up, young men

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  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Chris Werry,

    If TV3 can track them down then I’m sure the NZ Police will have no problem

    On past indications the police would probably search Kim Vinnell's apartment for evidence of stalking young men and breaching their right to privacy...
    <sigh>

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7776 posts Report Reply

  • raena, in reply to James Dunne,

    I don't see how you can have a real conversation about this without acknowledging that there is a long and troublesome past of women being assaulted at gigs.

    Wgtn • Since Feb 2016 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Peter Darlington,

    30th anniversary of Woodstock

    30 years of RTDs!! - 3 days of hate noise and violence?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7776 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __,

    I’d love it if some of the great dudes here could organise a strategy between yourselves for some non-violent support for women at the next gig you go to.

    Dan Clemerson-Phillips is doing that via Twitter for the legalise-rape arseholes. A posse of feminist men. I get that one dude, especially unprepared, may find it hard to intervene. So organise.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3886 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Lilith __,

    Dan Clemerson-Phillips is doing that via Twitter for the legalise-rape arseholes

    The anti-fash groups here are doing the same. We're kinda used to fronting up in potentially violent situations, and I suspect the pro-rape people are going to be a lot less physically threatening than the white power ones. It would be quite amusing in a way to convince the white power people that the pro-rape ones are foreign darkies coming here to rape their women (all those terms used advisedly, if perhaps somewhat understated from their usual language).

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1142 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd, in reply to Alfie,

    but virtually every concert or festival I've attended has been as part of a group,

    So -- these things didn't happen when you were around. That speaks really well of your contribution to the group, but it doesn't mean they weren't happening where you weren't paying attention.

    My suggestion: take contrary accounts as adding to your view of the world rather than contradicting it.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Hokianga,

    Festivals are no longer the province of the passionate music lover.
    They are now just a sanctioned gathering place for the current Generation.
    Millenials.
    Generation Douchbro & Drunkho.
    They don't care ... but we know this already.
    We know they have no concept of consequence.
    We know they do things because the three brain cells that aren't entirely drunk get together & go 'yeah, that'd be funny '.

    How sad that this is how this Generation sees fit to act. That they have no idea about what is an appropriate way to behave.
    It's all clouded over by what they want & how long till its available

    Tauranga • Since Feb 2016 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Joanna, in reply to Dean Hokianga,

    Thank heavens the older generation is here to refer to younger women as drunkhos, now everything is fine. Yay for appropriate ways to act!

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 746 posts Report Reply

  • Cam,

    Very important column Russell and excellent discussion.
    I'm surprised no-one has mentioned rap music (even though it is not Laneways thing). I have been listening to some of the current rap favourites including the Kendrick Lamar album that was widely considered album of last year.
    I am staggered, appalled and disgusted by the language and crude description of women (bitches, whores etc) and "guidance" on what to do with them. You hear such songs about bitches etc coming out from passing car stereos with packs of young males in the vehicle. I so hate those terms and what it is doing to young male minds.
    No wonder young men who hear this rubbish are treating women as playthings to abuse. I thought we had moved on from this and can't believe this seems to be standard and allowed in 2016.

    As an older person I do take issue with the suggestion that it is only young men. I work late and often walk down Queen St to catch a train later at night and have several times been spat at, pushed and abused as some sort of a stupid old bugger by very very drunk young -looking women in skimpy dresses especially either outside the QF tavern or near McDonalds next to the train station. I can't get over how young and how very very drunk these women are and how very aggressive they are both physically and in language.
    Let's address the male abuse of women issue but let's not pretend it is just young men being the problem here.

    Since Feb 2016 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • raena, in reply to Dean Hokianga,

    Don't say 'they' like your generation hasn't done its share of misogyny and idiocy.

    Wgtn • Since Feb 2016 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Hokianga, in reply to Amy Gale,

    I think that maybe the point was that the younger females seemed to be ok with or even blase' about how the older women were badly treated.
    And the older women hoping the younger women would get the 'boys' to pull their heads in ... only to see the younger females laugh & even encourage the behaviour.

    Tauranga • Since Feb 2016 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    I can't find those guys on Facebook - the link didn't work and although their names are popular searches, they don't seem to come up. If they've had to take their pages down that's kind of poetic justice.

    I guess whenever something gets popular enough, people who haven't had the chance to absorb the vibe and fit it will inevitably come and check it out, and trip up on the tacit rules of the longstanding members. Nobody's mentioned rap because it got thoroughly gone over back when Chris Brown was coming to Nz, and it's not that relevant here.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 975 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Hokianga, in reply to raena,

    Never did, i'm fully aware of the faults of my generation ... still, I don't recall going to any festivals with people who think its appropriate to be sexually inappropriate with older patrons.

    Tauranga • Since Feb 2016 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Hokianga, in reply to Joanna,

    Yes that's the description i used, i also called out douchebros but ... no problem with that?
    Ok, let's revise that with ... male & female persons currently in a chemically altered state who are acquiescent with inappropriate sexualised behaviour towards older females.

    Tauranga • Since Feb 2016 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Emma Hart,

    We can say ‘this stuff seems to be getting worse at this particular gig’ AND ‘this stuff has always happened’.

    This is honestly what I’m trying to say. I know this is a long-term societal problem.

    But there’s been a shift in recent years at big music events, and I think music people should be allowed to grieve about it. We thought we were separate from boofhead culture and it turns out that now we’re not.

    I’ve actually thought about this quite a lot over the years, and I remember the change in mood at the Big Day Out, when it quite suddenly went from the only time you saw girls was when they were schlepping around after their boyfriends (the first two or three years) to young women running around gloriously in girl-gangs, and ditto at urban music venues.

    And now it seems we have douchebro culture, a la Rhythm & Vines. My Twtter timeline is full of women saying they’re wary of going to these events now. I’m kind of annoyed at being told it has always been thus, because I genuinely don’t think it has.

    Example, from Aroha Harawira on Facebook:

    After reading Richie Hardcore's post, I read this equally appalling account from Russell Brown, where a group of guys and girls were harassing an "older" woman at the same event (Laneway). It's not the kind of festival which would usually attract this type of behaviour, so perhaps the issue is more about this kind of bullying becoming more mainstream in some younger circles.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22584 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Hokianga, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Ahh Russell, there is such a conversation to be had about the changing face of music, where that music is being accessed & people who are associating with it. And you're correct about the association with RnV & Australian festivals like Stereosonic.

    Tauranga • Since Feb 2016 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Joanna, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I’m kind of annoyed at being told it has always been thus, because I genuinely don’t think it has.

    I'm real sorry that's inconvenient for you. This must be the most anyone has ever had to suffer because of the way men treat women.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 746 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Chamberlain, in reply to Dean Hokianga,

    I'd guess because describing women as "hos" is a sexist term of abuse, whereas describing men as "bros" isn't? And this is a thread about sexual assault and sexism directed at women, so that part of your comment really reflected a failure to read the room IMO.

    I'd urge you to read or re-read the thread and look at what women are saying in here. Especially the comments from Joanna, Robyn and Emma on page 5 about how this is a long-standing problem not limited to one particular age-group or demographic (well obviously other than being men...). Stephen's comment on page 6 is worth a look as well.

    London • Since Aug 2007 • 33 posts Report Reply

  • Joanna,

    Here is the issue about making it about "the younger generation" (or substitute in a religion or a colour or a genre of music you don't like, aka rap): it conveniently passes on the responsibility for people your own age/colour/ideology. It's what allows you to publish columns from men who refer to women as cunts and twats when they say something you don't like. It's why a number of Wellington women won't post here because one of the commentators is known by most of us to be very unsafe. It's why many of the people I know are seething with rage on their private twitter accounts right now. It's why a Laneway-loving guy who thought he was a feminist dateraped me because obviouslty he's not one of those people. .

    How women are treated, by everyone, is EVERYONE's responsibility. And the very best first thing you can do is actually listen to what they are telling you about their own experiences.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 746 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    To be fair, there are more than a few communities right now where sexist behaviour has been exposed where it hadn't previously been visible, and they're struggling to come to terms with it. "Hey, this is wrong and we should stop it" is one of the less clueless response options. Even if it erases past activism, at least it makes progress toward a solution.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 975 posts Report Reply

  • raena, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Well, I'm kind of annoyed that men minimise our very real experiences on the regular but we can't always get what we want can we Rusty?

    You are wrong. You can genuinely think what you like but you are wrong. It's not an opinion thing. Women's experiences are not some subjective matter of opinion. Women have been harassed and assaulted in the scene for years. When I started going to shows, riot grrrl was a thing. That's a whole movement that sprung up around women and girls making a safe culture and space for us and it is in direct response to the shitty treatment that women got at shows and in music culture. It happened, whether you noticed or not, whether you genuinely feel it or not. It's by no means the only manifestation of women fighting back against this stuff but it's a real good place to start reading up on it.

    Educate yourselves on how long this has been a problem.

    Wgtn • Since Feb 2016 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • Rageaholic,

    I was going to add to the experiences that women here have shared of being harassed at gigs for the past 20+ years, but after this comment I'm not sure I should bother:

    I’m kind of annoyed at being told it has always been thus, because I genuinely don’t think it has.

    Honestly. We're not trying to annoy anyone and we're not lying about this. This has been going on for a long time. Now it needs to stop, and blaming the youths or the bros or gigs these days isn't part of this process. Listening to women is.

    Eden • Since Nov 2010 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Joanna,

    I’m real sorry that’s inconvenient for you. This must be the most anyone has ever had to suffer because of the way men treat women.

    It's clearly not an inconvenience and and you're being ironic in saying so. I understand that. Jo, I am not for a second debating that the behaviour of men towards women is the societal issue here.

    But you've ignored or rejected any and every suggestion that there has been a shift at big music events or that the behaviour of young men in this respect has become more problematic. I've been to every single one of these events, both BDOs and Laneways, and my impression is that that something has happened. That's all.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22584 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    But also, what Joanna said. You can't other it by blaming an influx of boofheads, when other stuff passes under the radar because it's camouflaged in your community.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 975 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rageaholic,

    Honestly. We’re not trying to annoy anyone and we’re not lying about this. This has been going on for a long time. Now it needs to stop, and blaming the youths or the bros or gigs these days isn’t part of this process. Listening to women is

    Fair enough. But my impression, and that of the women I've spent the evening talking to (IRL, not online) is that something bad has happened in recent years.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22584 posts Report Reply

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