Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: I Never Been ta Borstal

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  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Helen Wilson,

    research is now showing – that men are equally likely to be victims of violent female partners.

    Without denying this might be the case in terms of violent incidents, isn't it also true that women are vastly more likely to end up in hospital - or worse, the morgue?

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2091 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __,

    My feminist friends are unwilling to enter this fray because it's gone from Steven's brave post about being a male survivor of male violence and abuse...to feminist-bashing.

    So here are some things to think about.

    Firstly, Intimate Partner Violence always exists in a context.

    Some of this violence results from poor impulse-control, and may be perpetrated by men or women, or both at once. Injuries are usually not serious.

    The other kind is what Women's Refuges exist for. The perpetrator (almost always a male) builds a relationship of total control over his intimate partner, based on threats, intimidation, and violence. This is the kind of IPV that puts women in fear of their lives, and fear for their children. The perpetrator will have isolated his partner from her friends and family, and he probably has control of the family finances. Women are afraid to leave because that is the time the perpetrator is most likely to seriously hurt or kill her. And she knows that if she leaves she will have little money, possibly no income, nowhere to live and she will have to leave her belongings, and her children's belongings, behind.
    It is for this need that Women's Refuges exist.

    When a woman murders her male partner, it is often because of ongoing IPV from him. The recognition of provocation as a defence recognised Battered Women's Syndrome as a mitigating factor.

    Women worked for decades to get Women's Refuges open, and still work tirelessly to keep them running and support the women who need their help.

    If men want to help other male survivors of violence and sexual abuse, perpetrated by men or women, I hope that they will work in that cause as so many women have worked in ours. And without needing to attack feminism or women's needs while they do so.

    Western Feminism has given women the legal status of people, alongside men. In many parts of the world, and in most of our own history, women have had only the status of property belonging to men, to be beaten, raped and otherwise mistreated on his whim. Marital rape has only been a crime since 1986. Married women who divorce have only had the right to half the matrimonial property since 1976. That right was extended to de-facto couples of 3 years or more in 2002. These are profound and relatively recent shifts in the zeitgeist. I hope you will understand why women still feel deeply anxious about our own safety and place in the world.

    Two final things: If a new social study presents a result very different to other studies, the question is whether it is a breakthrough to new knowledge, or whether its design and methodology is flawed. People I respect suggest that the Dunedin Longitudinal Study has failed to distinguish between lack-of-impulse-control violence and violence in the context of abusive relationships.

    Finally: Of course IPV can also occur in LGBT relationships. I don't know how much research has been done into how best to support survivors. I'd be glad to hear of initiatives in this area if anyone knows.

    I doubt I'll be posting in this thread again. Thanks to my friends (you know who you are) for their wise words and apologies for probably having mangled them here.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3887 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Looking forward, for me a problem is – assuming we are capable of accepting the findings of the now quite dated research – how might we adjust our family violence campaigns accordingly? As a leading question; if we were to ease up on the gender profiling and instead heighten our focus on the maxim that It’s Not OK, regardless of whether someone ends up in the hospital or the morgue, inclusively applicable to all genders, then how might such a reconsidered approach to violence as a whole potentially drive a reduction in homicides, suicides and numbers of victims hospitalised and not hospitalised?

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Lilith __,

    to feminist-bashing

    I’m genuinely sorry I came across that way Lilith, I saw one academic calling out a specific group of academics, I found the claims noteworthy.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Lilith __,

    I doubt I’ll be posting in this thread again. Thanks to my friends (you know who you are) for their wise words and apologies for probably having mangled them here.

    That's disappointing.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    If men want to help other male survivors of violence and sexual abuse, perpetrated by men or women, I hope that they will work in that cause as so many women have worked in ours. And without needing to attack feminism or women’s needs while they do so.

    What I’ve seen of men helping male survivors of violence, is that we are highly unlikely to mimic the women’s groups. And attacking feminism or women’s needs isn't what we are about.

    I am interested in a more integrated approach to recovery from sexual abuse and violence. Thats going to require some difficult conversations, IMHO.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Andrew C, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Let me be clear: everything says that the vast majority of the abuse runs the other way. That’s just not in doubt

    EDITED AFTER I READ SOME LATER COMMENTS

    I found a post at Kiwiblog where he has some comment and quotes from the longitudinal study people are mentioning in the comments, but their link to the actual paper is dead.

    He does note that the worst type of violence (e.g. sever injury or murder) was almost always male on female though.

    Auckland • Since May 2008 • 168 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Andrew C,

    I agree with Russell, but I’d modify to: That the majority of adult to adult physical abuse that happens within the domestic setting, comes from men towards women. And I agree with most (not all) with what Lilith said. But that’s little comfort to anyone in the sizeable minority, who don’t fit a narrow definition of what domestic violence looks like.

    Neglecting the validation of this invisible minority’s needs can lead to even more serious public health problems.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    It's unfortunate, but interesting, that the thread jumped straight to female-on-male violence, which is not irrelevant but also not what Steven's post is about.

    Kicking myself a bit for not making that clearer at the top of the discussion, sorry.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • WordsnNoise, in reply to Helen Wilson,

    really appreciate this point - there will be better outcomes if men are given healthy relationship help, how to be a good partner/dad support, included in the maternity sector and if couples are having trouble, they both get communication and relnship counselling, it needs to focus more on them working as a team, plus there is a need for high end DV approaches when needed..

    Auckland, Aotearoa • Since Nov 2006 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Lilith __,

    the Dunedin Longitudinal Study has failed to distinguish between lack-of-impulse-control violence and violence in the context of abusive relationships.

    Thank you in particular for this Lilith, it pinpoints for me why I felt the statement was left wanting. In neglecting to offer any reasoning as to why the research may initially have been rejected Moffitt failed to adequately account for the volatility of the climate in which such high profile incriminations would be received and could potentially be exploited.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to mark taslov,

    the Dunedin Longitudinal Study has failed to distinguish between lack-of-impulse-control violence and violence in the context of abusive relationships.

    Thank you in particular for this Lilith, it pinpoints for me why I felt the statement was left wanting.

    Cheers Mark.

    While violence is never OK, it always has a context, and understanding the context is key to violence-prevention and help for survivors.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3887 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to steven crawford,

    Thank you so much for this Steven, I was so preoccupied with my own thoughts that I never got around to expressing my gratitude here.

    But the watered-down, less serious, boys-will-be-boys “Young men get themselves into fights” dismissal statements persist, without considering that the majority of young men are not inherently violent human beings. They are just expected to be, for fucked-up cultural reasons.

    I think this is so important Steven and is where a lot of our failure as a society lies. While I largely agree with the thrust of Christopher Dempsey’s post, where he said:

    If we approach violence as a concept without gender

    Reversing that and approaching gender as a concept without violence is incredibly problematic in a wider context, in that it rather requires us to ignore biology. Though we are a ‘civilised’ species, biological influence will persist to some degree.

    Having been caught up in the cycle of violence until well into my twenties I’m all too familiar with the role acculturation plays in perpetuating these patterns. This “boys-will-be-boys” mantra was too often lazily prescribed by our elders as an endorsement of violence , ‘boys’ presenting a very limited range in terms of identity, essentially we have excused violence in our male population for decades. We desensitise people to violence and then celebrate our most desensitised.

    New Zealand has had an all too long love affair with hard bastards. Every night both major networks deliver our daily 10 minute fill of homoerotic ball chasing. We love our boys, with their indigenous dancing and their topless ads, we find a whole boy squad’s inability to treat one woman with a modicum of respect and dignity "disappointing" but we’ll drop one of those boys for cavorting with a woman. To the uninformed observer of our media, New Zealand might appear to be one of the gayest patriarchal cultures on the planet. Jesting aside there are serious issues incumbent with that. In almost any given test match at some point the game devolves into a brawl, we see punches thrown and invariably no one is sent off, the commentators aren’t horrified, instead it is minimised, endorsed even as “a bit of biffo”.

    LGBT stats indicate that domestic violence is not contingent on gender, in fact it would appear at face value to be more contingent on our sexuality. Women bear the biggest brunt of the vast majority of our country’s serious domestic violence incidents, but this is because we appear as a species to be predominantly heterosexual. At the heart of the issue is our inability to assert self-control with those we are closest to, regardless of our chromosones – at an individual level. Touting this cliche that “men can hit harder” largely ignores the ingenuity of the human brain. The violence doesn’t stop when the fist hits the eye socket, it stops when we successfully resist the urge to lash out.

    Some of us will have heard the phrase “soften the fuck up”, it is amusing, but the humorous juxtaposition is in danger of obscuring the message. Rather more importantly it does appear that with regards to the intended audience: that horse has already bolted. If someone is in the habit of perpertrating violence it is resolve and self discipline that is often most neglected. Softening may even be dangerous if misconstrued as heightened self-regard at the expense of others.

    *******************************************************************************************

    The first gig (for want of a better word) I attended was the Topp Twins. As a confused child drowning in an assigned gender identity they were and still are a revelation, they were like boys, highlighting that as people we can be who we are regardless of pressures to conform.

    Visualising gender identity as a spectrum – and please excuse the primitiveness of this – with women at one end and men at the other, in New Zealand women are represented diversely occupying positions all the way across, while men, for the most part, appear bunched up on their side. Obviously this is a generalisation with gradations and exceptions, but in the media, excluding Laughing Samoans, male feminity in New Zealand is represented by the singular role model Mike Puru.

    New Zealand is a violent place, and it may be many years before we can begin to shake that off meaningfully, society is as accomplished at self denial and delusion as any individual. Our national colours are a binary black and white. We pay lipservice to our diversity but for the most part we fear nonconformity as much as the next country. ‘boys will be boys’ is not something boys need be any longer.

    While in some ways we may appear more egalitarian than most civilisations, there is very little equality in the maxim ‘boys mustn’t hit girls’ without its complement. We want people growing up equal, feeling cherished and being loved regardless of gender, race or any other box that comes along, because it is the absense of these emotional attachments that breeds the detachment that leads to atrocity.

    So as a violent society, beyond prohibition we must find ways to harness this violence. I’d advocate including a traditional martial arts curriculum at school, not so much as a means of self-defence, but as a means of self-control. As a country it is our self-control that requires mindfulness, whether it be in our diets, our use of substances, our language or our actions. We don’t need to harden or toughen up, we need to smarten up, temper our prejudices, reach out and be more inclusive. Not every criticism is a bash, whether we regard ourselves as individuals or as members of a team, a fact of life is that we can always do things better, especially when our priority is to improve broken systems.

    People are angry, and for good reason, we are routinely marginalised, victimised, beaten, raped, killed by other people, and more often than not as culprits we are perpetuating trauma induced cycles. Every assault is a failure of our society, not just our gender, or our chromosome configuration or our skin colour or our religious group: our entire society. Trauma victims need to be scouted out and helped meaningfully while young. For now there’s an insurmountable amount of work to be done in that regard, and wasting time dicking around with names for the relevant department or diluting our positive messages with transphobic myths that gender is an accident of birth is as clear an indication as any as to just how far off the pace we are.

    I hope this wasn’t too much Steven, just some thoughts.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    The first gig (for want of a better word) I attended was the Topp Twins. As a confused child drowning in an assigned gender identity they were and still are a revelation, they were like boys, highlighting that as people we can be who we are regardless of pressures to conform.

    Marlon Brando talks about acting here on you tube. He’s explaining how we all conform to servive. I think it takes tenacity to act more inline with ourselves. Some people have to work harder at it than others. My story is pretty average.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I hope this wasn’t too much Steven, just some thoughts.

    This is excellent thinking you are contributing here, as far as I’m concerned.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to steven crawford,

    Another revealing article. Despite the writer conflating male/man, the conversation does look to be shifting into a more intersectional gear.

    "I think the reality is we do have this approach – particularly with boys, [as] I think there is a gender difference with parenting – of ‘Don’t cry, toughen up, get over it’. We expect our young to be tough and unfortunately that means we don’t let them be vulnerable."

    […]

    "There’s a whole generation of young males, particularly Maori males who have grown up in broken homes, who are constantly criticised no matter what they do. They’re constantly told they have to be hard and staunch and just suck it up and hold on to it and … it’s killing them."

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Let me be clear: everything says that the vast majority of the abuse runs the other way.

    While this may be true, “everything” here is the 24% of domestic violence incidents that are reported to the police. It’s one intersection of many, and I’d rather be viewing reality through the more nuanced window of intersectional feminism over this two tone second wave feminism – in order to more accurately identify the drivers. This fixation with a gender binary model obscures features such as ethnicity, poverty, inequality, sexuality, power. What we’re almost guaranteed not to hear about or discuss – for example – is how the lifetime prevalence for Maori males experiencing IPV has surpassed that of European females, let alone that Maori females are twice as likely as European females to experience IPV.

    That just doesn’t fit an easy Caucasian narrative..

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    In no particular order-

    My pick of the top 10 Rape Culture articles of 2017 that either normalise the notion of rape as an activity perpetuated exclusively by men (led ably by teenage boys), marginalise the experience of non-female rape victims or heteronormatively ignore sexual violence issues relating to the LGBTQIA community:

    Shelley Bridgeman: Rape culture is alive and well

    Big read: How do we teach our kids about sex and consent?

    Rachel Smalley: How can we stop rape culture?

    Why facts speak louder than tired gender stereotypes

    Alison Mau: It’s time to teach teenage boys about consent – whether they like it or not

    Rise in pornography feeding rape culture in schools

    Lizzie Marvelly: Dear parents. We need to talk about your sons

    Duncan Garner: The facts of life should come from parents, not overloaded teachers

    I’m a rape survivor, and my teen boys are blind to rape culture

    Sexual violence double-standards need to go

    My pick of the top 10 Rape Culture articles of 2017 in which a connection is made between rape culture and the abuse of 100s of predominantly young men in state care to whom our Government refuses to apologise : ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to mark taslov,

    She says it's common for people to take advantage of others when they're drunk. It happens to boys and girls, she says (are you surprised?) and there's "a disgusting double standard" where there's less of an outrage when a girl takes advantage of a guy.

    Thats the 17 year old who organised the march on parliament being quoted there.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to steven crawford,

    Yes, I linked to that on the Privacy thread. If any, that’s a quote to run with from a source in the field. Instead it just seemed to get buried and the outcome is that it’s an anomaly among the reportage.

    Sorry for spamming your thread, and I should also apologise to Russell, Emma etc for going on about this – thanks for not banning me! My main motivation as that the moral panic we’re hearing now isn’t all that different from the moral panic when I was at school 25 years ago. How’s that working out for us? Need we pump up the binary any more?

    Most articles throw in the 1 in 3 girls and some include the 1 in 7 boys statistic. We are talking about 100s of 1000s of people of either gender. Over a million all up, without neglecting this.

    Due to its hidden nature, it can be difficult to gather an accurate picture of the problem of sexual violence as it is often not reported, which means that statistics may fail to reflect the problem in full. There have been many research projects in Aotearoa New Zealand which show a high prevalence of sexual violence in our communities.

    Because it doesn’t really matter what gender the assailant was, we don’t get sexually assasulted as a gender or by a gender, we get assaulted as individuals. Those stats listed above don’t provide the gender of the attacker, heteronormative assumption is required, heteronormativity is being perpetuated and helps to shelter rapists.

    Why is the MSM paraphrasing rather than publishing Sorcha directly? How is it that so many columnists opinions conform with one another so closely?

    It’s dire steven. Having been ostracised by females and aliented from males for a lot of my life has sucked but it has also brought with it a certain sense of neutrality to the extent that and I can’t ignore the incredible double standards we’re perpetuating here.

    We teach boys that they must hold their own personal space, and we expect them to be prepared to protect themselves against physical challenge. We teach girls that their personal space is sacrosanct and any attempt at violation is punishable. These are broadly invasive societal expectations and only one of them grants a basic human right, and we wonder why there’s conflict.

    I feel safer as a woman knowing that if I shout loud enough there is a chance that there will be a groundswell of support because “rape culture"in this context, as this gender, is a certified product that the media has identified it can sell copy with. Meanwhile one encounters these isolated male voices in cyberspace dealing with horrific abuse who are clearly unable to gather any support whatsoever.

    Discarded in society’s too hard basket.

    And the suggestions.

    a targeted social media campaign that says nothing of consent or rape, but looks at gender and encouraging men to be “vulnerable, weak and multifaceted human beings”.

    As a vulnerable, weak and multifaceted human (having been led to believe I was a vulnerable man) it was quite easy to accept being sexually assaulted. It was easy to accept that it was my weakness that caused it, that by not fighting back I somehow saved myself from something worse.

    That social media campaign concept sounds great for an anger management workshop but it doesn’t begin to address the threat of rape or tendencies of rapists.

    With absolutely no education, knowledge or understanding of what sexual assault means or might look like when applied to me and my body I was a weak, vulnerable multi faceted sitting duck.

    People don’t always immediately recognise they’ve been sexually assaulted, denial is natural, and with no discussion about non-heteronormative assault, it was easy to try to brush away, and it wasn’t until I woke up one day and realised that I was no longer socialising, no longer interested in making friends, barely leaving my house except to bike to and from work, never talking to anyone at work, only then that I was fully able to confront the reality that this was a survival response to things that had occurred.

    If we can’t recognise these assaults for what they are then we are pliant. In ME and Asia they call it “marriage”.

    And it truly feels like these respective media opinions come out of a shared tattered textbook from 1959. There’s the one chapter teaching us we must teach our high school students consent despite the fact that New Zealanders start having sex before high school. The next fallacy is that the types of entitled teenagers making comments like we’ve seen are the types of people who give any fuck whatsoever what some oldie’s telling them. The next misapprehension is that consent is an incredibly difficult issue to understand.

    It’s not.

    We learn “no means no” at the age of 2 or 3 – for the most part – but we’re such wowser puritans when it comes to talking about human sexuality, evident in that A. we tend to respect “no” in most other democratic capitalist contexts and B. The consensus seems to be that high school as opposed to primary is being touted as the appropriate time to have these discussions, rather than bridging the concepts incrementally right through as part of a civics curriculum.

    We need to continue the conversation about misogyny, but this sensationalist overuse of the term “rape culture” and of the word “rape” to discuss misogyny – which is at its core a symptom rather than a cause of rape – leads to our acceptance of superficial and misrepresentative stereotypes that enable rather than protect us against rapists. Not all misogynists are rapists and vice versa.

    My understanding of rape culture is best informed by pillars of communities I know of, people who have sexually assaulted me; an author, an award winning educator, a lawyer, a therapist, in no particular order, of no particular gender.

    This – to me – is our rape culture, from the top down. From the wealthy to the impoverished, from the powerful to the weak. From the Pope to the pauper. From the privileged to us, the zeros – remnants of humanity discarded underfoot by those we as a society most value. By New Zealand.

    This belief that rape culture is a correctable behaviour among a tiny demographic as opposed to a broad systemic malignance, is misplaced. We can achieve little but fight fires unless we’re truly listening…..lets…. nek minute

    PORNOGRAPHY

    “It’s the pornography that is commanding rape culture!”. Rape writes culture, culture responds. People manipulate that, rapists, abusers are manipulative, that’s why you like them and why you’re friends with them, because you could never believe they would say such a thing let alone do such a thing – according to the news.

    Everyone deserves to be listened to, cherished and protected

    even the New Zealand son.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to mark taslov,

    I understand some of the anger you are expressing. What you are saying is true, it’s real and it’s a very difficult thing to work through. It’s looking like it’ll probability take me a lifetime to sort my own shit out.

    As for everyone else. I think there is such a thing as rape culture, coined by hybridised social/mainstream media. My interpretation, is that it is about male assumptions of entitlement to sexual gratification, divorced of empathy toward the female involved. It’s about learned behaviour. So maybe it’s not an altogether bad thing to have people yelling out that it’s bad behaviour. It’s not civilised behaviour, and it’s a good idea to teach children about different behaviour.

    Now what you where saying about institutional abuse, where 100s of predominantly boys where abused in state care. That’s partly why we now have gang culture and prison culture. These aren’t the same as “rape culture” as far as I understand. But rape is part of gang culture and prison culture, which spreads out into other culture. And that’s also bad behaviour.

    And then there are the absolute monsters out there who do really horrible shit.

    What’s right up there in my order of business, are the symptoms of PTSD. What are they? And how do you manage them?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Brent Jackson, in reply to steven crawford,

    My interpretation, is that it is about male assumptions of entitlement to sexual gratification, divorced of empathy toward the female involved.

    This. So much this. (Though "female" could be changed to "other").

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 615 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Brent Jackson,

    (Though “female” could be changed to “other”).

    But then it wouldn’t be “rape culture”, adherent all the opinion news articals mark has linked to except one comment from a 17 year old in one.It would be another culture of sexual violence. I also agree with you.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

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