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Speaker: Database Nation

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  • Sam F,

    - 20,000 died in the Musket Wars
    - 2,700 died at Gallipolli

    Not to sanction your flagwaving friends' logic, but neither of those were a single deadly surprise attack on a purely civilian target in peacetime, as a hypothetical American might quickly point out. They're still terrible wounds on our country, but 9/11 was a very different beast.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1611 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Sorry, that would be Matthew Poole's acquaintances. My bad for the confusion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1611 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    umm, not my acquaintances. The only friend of mine I've mentioned in this thread thinks that the terrorists haven't won because Americans keep flying. Nothing about comparative deaths, etc.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Wow, goofing up left right and centre here. Apologies once more.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1611 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I think as someone mentioned above that the real issue was probably wounded national pride rather than the numbers killed (not to diminish their importance). And it's arguable that some of the targets were strictly "civilian".

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    consequently I went to the dodgy corner shop and picked one up for £1.

    Here in the world's most illogical country you are required to register your pre-paid via a bit of software on every SIM before it works. The thing is you can send back any sort of information and it works fine. My daughter's is registered to Harry Potter.

    I had to provide more detail of course to get a number on account but the strangest request was for me to draw a picture of my house so they could find it if required! I drew a primary school styled square box with windows and flowers and they seemed happy.

    I believe I was supposed to register with the police within 24 hours when I visited China in 2006, because I was staying with a local family.

    I think I was supposed to declare myself when we went to stay in hotels as well, but the question never arose.

    All common throughout Asia. In parts of Java one needs a wedding certificate to share a room with one's spouse.

    We need to register any guest who stays overnight with the police and we have to report to the Kantor Polda ourselves once a year to renew our address.

    You get rather used to bag and car checks by, often, machine gun toting polisi or guards. But it's mostly for show..to keep the ockers happy with their tourist dollars and travel warnings. I drove into a mall a little while back with a huge wooden crate on the back seat. The guard looked in, said "Security Check, bapak" checked under the car with the mirror and waved me through without a second glance at the crate.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    You get rather used to bag and car checks by, often, machine gun toting polisi or guards.

    Careful there, Simon, you're making me homesick.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Careful there, Simon, you're making me homesick.

    that explains the swarms of Italians everywhere here

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Please point to where anything any of you has said contradicts that.

    I thought Stephen's point was that Israel is at least as, or more, vigorous than the USA in its response.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I had to provide more detail of course to get a number on account but the strangest request was for me to draw a picture of my house so they could find it if required! I drew a primary school styled square box with windows and flowers and they seemed happy.

    Bizarre! And people say NZ bureaucracy has gone mad.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    our new Government plans to introduce DNA testing of all suspects in all crimes involving imprisonable offences.

    I just found a http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0810/S00672.htm:

    As is the case with fingerprints and photographs, we will require DNA records to be destroyed where charges are dropped or where suspects are found not guilty.

    So not quite as evil as it sounds in the oft-repeated summary. Probably (pending yet more info) still encourages police to lay charges for the blood test tho, and frankly, can't they wait for the conviction?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    I thought Stephen's point was that Israel is at least as, or more, vigorous than the USA in its response.

    Israel's got an ongoing and unquestionably real threat, though. The US may or may not have. Israel's also developed these measures through decades of suicide bombers and the like. Which was more the point. Israel can point to the fact that, despite these measures, they're still subjected to attacks. The US hasn't been attacked since 11/9, but that hasn't stopped them from on-going attacks on civil liberties.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    machine gun toting polisi or guards

    Someone once pointed out to me the daftness of machine guns for policing. "It leaves you with no other option than maximum force," he said. If someone's not complying you have to either let it slide of turn them into paste.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Matthew, does your definition of "response" include the Iraq and Afghan wars? If so, I would agree with you. I was more thinking of domestic measures. Kyle, yeah, that was indeed my point.

    Eg, if you were vigorously pursuing a policy of airport screening, you wouldn't employ minimum wage drones from a private firm. You would have undercover police and military everywhere, and a high proportion of random passengers would get an extensive grilling designed to unsettle them and detect the nervous and untruthful. Which is why there hasn't been a successful attack on a plane leaving Ben Gurion ever.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    and very much on topic...

    from the Guardian:

    People who fail to tell the authorities of a change of address or amend other key personal details within three months will face civil penalty fines of up to £1,000 a time when the national identity card scheme is up and running, according to draft Home Office regulations published yesterday.

    The Home Office made clear that repeated failures to keep an entry on the national identity register up to date could ultimately be enforced by bailiffs being sent round to seize property.

    But yesterday’s detailed regulations to implement the national identity card scheme make clear that they intend to avoid the creation of ID card “martyrs”, by levying no penalty on those who refuse to register for the national identity card database in the first place.

    The Liberal Democrat peer, Lady Williams, is amongst ID card “refuseniks” who have said they are prepared to go to jail rather than sign up for the scheme.

    But the regulations show that the main sanction they are likely to face is being barred from leaving the country when it is time to renew their passport.

    The regulations confirm ministers’ intention to make passports a “designated document” which means anyone applying or renewing their passport will be automatically issued with an ID card at the same time. Ministers claim that this does not amount to compulsion but ID card critics disagree.

    hat tip: cryptogon

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 646 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    if you were vigorously pursuing a policy of airport screening, you wouldn't employ minimum wage drones from a private firm.

    Possibly related, Bruce Scheier pointed out recently that failure to arrest everyone who tries to bring liquids onto the plane make a mockery of the whole liquids-are-a-threat thing.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    This is an excellent discussion. Two observations:

    1. The rapid progress towards a track-and-trace society in Britain seems to some extent a reaction to the fact that for so long it was such a messy bureaucracy. Because it took so long to get a passport, you could stroll in to a post office and get yourself a temporary British passport over the counter. You could get it with someone else's birth certificate if you liked, and it was just a piece of paper with no photograph on it. Lots of people worked and signed on, no one ever seemed to get caught. I never paid poll tax and didn't pay income tax in my last year there. I briefly wondered if I'd have trouble when I went back for a visit 10 years later, but there was no problem. Tax records used to get lost all the time.

    2. There are plenty of Americans who loathe what air travel has become in that country. When I was last there, in 2006, the requirement to remove shoes had come into force. Transferring at LAX, that happened in a hot, non-air-conditioned room that, of course, really stank, and there was a queue and a guy barking instructions. It was just an ordeal. Then on the way out, I got flagged for a luggage search at every possible point at two airports: twice on the way to the boarding gate at LAX, and I also had to stand in the perspex cubicle that blows jets of air at you in the hope of picking up explosives residue. (I don't think for a moment they thought I had actually been making bombs, but it was an expensive machine and they had to justify the expense by using it.)

    The creepy thing was that I discovered it was a risk to catch anyone's eye, let alone smile. Only one person smiled at me: the young soldier who performed the last search on my bag and cracked a Mac vs PC joke. Photocopied bill posters declaring the current threat level were everywhere. Outside the terminals, departing smokers gave their lighters to arriving smokers, because it is no longer allowed to carry a disposable lighter on a plane.

    And this, of course, all went on every day of the year.

    As Cory Doctorow noted around the same time, how long till the government decides the exploding buttplug is a risk, and rectal inspections become the price of flying?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    Transferring at LAX, that happened in a hot, non-air-conditioned room that, of course, really stank, and there was a queue and a guy barking instructions

    God, I've been in that room. Smelly and over-crowded with one tiny TV and a couple of snack machines. I was horribly hungover at the time and clearly a shabby, messy yoof worthy of further inspection. As I was questioned about my forward plans, I joked about the security being OTT and asked if it was to stop people escaping to or from the US... this did not endear me to the security. I suspect now it'd be enough to get me arrested and my DNA sampled.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    There are plenty of Americans who loathe what air travel has become in that country. When I was last there, in 2006, the requirement to remove shoes had come into force. Transferring at LAX, that happened in a hot, non-air-conditioned room that, of course, really stank, and there was a queue and a guy barking instructions. It was just an ordeal.

    Agree, LAX is essentially an interrogation chamber with aircraft runways. Was SFO any better?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Agree, LAX is essentially an interrogation chamber with aircraft runways. Was SFO any better?

    Much -- getting searched there was positively pleasant. I went via LAX to San Francisco because the person I was travelling with had Qantas air points, but next time I go back to California, it's absolutely direct to SFO on Air NZ.

    Funny thing is, LAX was vile long before the current panic. My first experience of it was being herded into a dirty transit "lounge" with no shops or anything en route back from London with a four-month old baby. I was flabbergasted by that.

    And I nearly kissed Paul Johnston from Renaissance when he blagged me into the Air NZ lounge at LAX during our stopover on the way back from Macworld NY in 1998. It was like a beautiful garden of loveliness, with hot showers and cold sauvignon blanc.

    But it doesn't have to be that way. Look at Changi airport, which is run by a government which has an intense focus on security -- but still manages to treat travellers like humans. Humans, it should be noted, with nothing better to do than shop.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Funny thing is, LAX was vile long before the current panic. My first experience of it was being herded into a dirty transit "lounge" with no shops or anything en route back from London with a four-month old baby. I was flabbergasted by that.

    I already told the story about being sequestered there on my way to my father's funeral, haven't I? Nobody's topping that, sorry. And it was also pre 9/11. Worse couple of hours of my life, or thereabouts.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin,

    The one and only time I went through LAX (well, twice) was this year. It wasn't a bad experience at all - friendly (but firm) staff, fast. Sure I took my shoes off, but that was about as bad as it got.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1027 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Funny thing is, LAX was vile long before the current panic.

    My first experience of the joys of LAX came in 1983, transiting thru to London. It was being rebuilt for the '84 Olympics and was mostly shut. We were herded off NZ1 into a big thing that looked like half an airship. We were told to stay there for the transit time...about 2 hours. There were no bathrooms and any attempt to leave was met with a snarl by a big guy with a gun.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    The Air NZ LAX lounge is an oasis & I too gave a cheeky smile to get in there ;)

    I've told this story before but the Polish High School Girl who had the entry visa for the USA while travelling to the home via LAX & LHR with her host family (NZ Dad is a Diplomat) was detained overnight and deported from the USA because she didn't have a transit visa. The entry visa is now the standard and is the better one incase of a flt delay. Go through SFO.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I also had to stand in the perspex cubicle that blows jets of air at you in the hope of picking up explosives residue.

    Sounds like low-level kinky.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

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