Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Perception and reality in the criminal justice system

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  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    I believe a lot of the success of liberalism in Continental Europe is rooted in an association of authoritarian policies with Nazism and Soviet communism. The generation that experienced occupation or domination by the Nazis and Soviets tended to react against this and support liberal ideas.

    Since no significant part of the anglosphere was occupied, we didn’t benefit from this “inoculation”.

    Unfortunately, that’s dying out with the 1940’s generation – reactionary forces (often associated with powerful media and financial interests) are succeeding in scaring continental Europeans into intolerant social attitudes.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Since no significant part of the anglosphere was occupied, we didn’t benefit from this “inoculation”.

    A different scenario than both Japan and China, post their respective wars. Of the many places I would choose not to be a criminal out of shear bloody fear, Japan and China would be right up there, right behind America.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to andrew r,

    A lot of that is Defence lawyer speak. On the books cannabis is illegal, in attempt to persuade the sentencing Justice to give Home D which Bryant was right on the cusp of potentially getting, one has to show the Sentencer that assn with said illegal substance is diminishing, – kinda standard.

    Yeah, fair enough. I think it was really the judge saying "I don't really think you're rehabilitating that much". Well, yeah. Dude's 62. Not really about to change his style now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    I do wonder, too, if people were able to see into prison life (in a meaningful way, not one of my beloved "factual" tv programmes) whether they would change their minds about it being an easy place to be.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Kim Workman, in reply to Lyndon Hood,

    Have responded to SST's self-selecting poll on 3 strikes for young offenders. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1106/S00253/three-strikes-for-younger-offenders-is-still-a-bad-idea.htm
    Andrew BEcroft's paper 'How to turn a Child Offender into an Adult Criminal in 10 Easy Steps' is a good read. On www.rethinking.org.nz

    Wellington • Since Jun 2011 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Kim Workman,

    Thanks for dropping by, Kim.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Kim Workman, in reply to Lyndon Hood,

    The drop may be due in part to increased adult diversion by the Police, particularly in the Auckland region. Some believe it is the result of remand prisoners spending less time in prison due to the reduction in deposition hearings.

    There is no evidence that it is due to a reduction in the recidivism rate, due to increased rehabilitation programmes in prison. For that to happen, the programme increase would have had to occur prior to May 2009, as recidivism rates are usually calculated two years after prisoner release. I've asked for that information, but it's unlikely to be available at this time, and will not have been published at this point.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2011 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    It all reinforces my suspicions of today’s ‘corrections’ policy being less about setting people back on the right path, and more about crypto-segregationist politics.

    While NZ ranks high on the imprisonment scale, we’re actually behind (not just USA) Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Singapore, South Africa and Brazil – and that’s just the majors. And level pegging with Mexico (a lot more drug cartel violence there) and the Czech Republic.

    At the end of the day, it’s what sort of people are in prison that counts, and the recidivism rate. In America’s case, blacks and Hispanics have higher imprisonment rates relative to their populations than all other ethnic groups.
    Tellingly, America’s overall imprisonment rate was roughly proportional to population growth, until Reagan entered office, after which it then increased geometrically.
    Much of that period can be attributed to the War on Drugs and the spread of crack cocaine, the fiscal upheavals of Reaganomics, the Culture Wars, and the younger than average makeup of the criminal demographic.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Didn't Garth McVicar go to Finland with an official delegation of the last Labour government, led by Phil Goff I think. But IIRC he wasn't impressed.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Actually, I think he's 63. Almost pension age. But for his status in the NZ music world over many decades it's a bit like sending Keith Richards to jail for drugs. What will it achieve?

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Didn’t Garth McVicar go to Finland with an official delegation of the last Labour government, led by Phil Goff I think. But IIRC he wasn’t impressed.

    Wouldn't be surprised in the least. His idol just happens to be a blustering Arizona sheriff who has the Feds – yes, the freaking Feds – breathing down his neck. And I haven’t yet mentioned the deluge of civil suits, his Winston-ism towards border migrants, and his alleged cosiness with shaven-headed goons.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    It all reinforces my suspicions of today’s ‘corrections’ policy being less about setting people back on the right path, and more about crypto-segregationist politics.

    Let me fix that for you:
    It all reinforces my suspicions of today’s ‘corrections’ policy being less about setting people back on the right path, and more about politicians pandering to gut responses in the electorate instead of articulating why "tough on crime" policies actually don't work.

    If we had some political will to tackle the sources of crime through multi-generational approaches, we'd get somewhere. The comment about about Finland's path to its current state being a multi-decade process shows that there is no quick fix, no matter how much McThicker et al, with the connivance of most of our political "leadership", try to convince us otherwise.
    Until there's a change in the message from Wellington, to emphasise that fact and suggest that we need to try something else, we won't see meaningful long-term changes.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Didn’t Garth McVicar go to Finland with an official delegation of the last Labour government, led by Phil Goff I think. But IIRC he wasn’t impressed.

    Au contraire. He was very impressed:

    New Zealand's prison system is being held up as an example of what not to do in Britain, says Sensible Sentencing Trust founder Garth McVicar, who arrived back in Hawke's Bay last week after an eight-day tour of Europe's prison systems.

    Mr McVicar and Kim Workman, the liberal former deputy secretary of justice and current head of the Prison Fellowship, were invited to Europe at taxpayers' expense by Corrections Minister Damien O'Connor to look for ways of reducing New Zealand's fast-rising prison population, which is now proportionately higher than any other developed country, except the United States.

    Mr McVicar said their first surprise came when they arrived at the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College, London.

    "They use New Zealand as an example of what not to do - how our prison population is escalating and our level of violent crime is increasing," he said.

    "They educate other countries on what is working on a worldwide basis since New Zealand is an example of what not to do. That was possibly a bit of a shock to all of us," he said.

    Sadly, it wore off. His recent commentary about Mt Eden prison is wholly at odds with what he said in 2006, after the study trip. This makes one doubt his actual commitment to effective solutions.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston, in reply to Lyndon Hood,

    but has anyone sighted the actual Becroft letter about youth justice that Key tabled? I can’t shake the idea comments on different bits of the system are being confused in the reporting I saw.

    Lyndon - I have asked for a copy of this letter but my understanding is that the PM did not have Judge Becroft's permission to table that letter.
    It intrigues me because Judge Becroft has not been a supporter of boot camps in the past.
    There are some good examples of wilderness camps working well in the US but they do not use the miltary style boot camp approach. Also NZ boot camps show reasonbly positive short term results but as Kim Workman and others have said the long term results are not at all positive.
    Judge Becroft may be thinking of a strategy of combining boot camps with 12 months of mentoring post camp - this would have a much better success rate.

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    If we had some political will to tackle the sources of crime through multi-generational approaches, we’d get somewhere

    Matthew - you are of course so right. It's an area I work in and its frustrating to see so much heat going into the crime and punishment area when longer term preventive measures get much less support.
    Articulating the message is the challenge - long term prevention means working with younger ages, multi-generations and it is more complex. It doesn't lend itself well to headlines and sound bytes. It was refreshing however to hear Bill English talk about the economic advantages of long term prevention over prisons , its a start.

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • Raymond A Francis,

    Rather than looking at what is wrong with the NZ system (and there is plenty) a good look and some serious time spent discussing the Finnish set up might be helpful in breaking the present cycle of locking up more and more of our citizens

    I would suggest that diversion has lowered present jail numbers or rather slowed it as in my experience, criminals or rather people who break laws (including ones they don't agree with) are slow learners, they just don't see the connection with them breaking the laws and the consequences of that behaviour
    Mr Bryant being a classic case, he knew very well what would happen if he broke the law but he continued to deal
    The law may be stupid but breaking it is not a good way to get it changed unless maybe you can get a big section of the community to break it, proving that the "law is an ass" but I doubt if that is going to work with dealing in drugs.
    As pointed out above if you want to do that buy a pub or a dairy

    45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 578 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Russell Brown,

    This makes one doubt his actual commitment to effective solutions.

    As opposed to culture war pig farming, methinks?

    It was refreshing however to hear Bill English talk about the economic advantages of long term prevention over prisons , its a start.

    And what does it mean when even ACT's Heather Roy is starting to question the Throw Away The Key orthodoxy?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Damian Christie,

    If I can just throw a plug in here - next week's Hindsight (TVNZ 7, Tuesday, 9.30pm) is on the topic of prisons too, and has interviews with both Garth & Kim, as well some really poignant clips - there's one from the 1960s where Mt Eden is about to be closed down, Paremoremo is about to be opened, there'll never be double bunking there, D-block is the way of the future, and in 50 years time we'll be able to close all the prisons down because we won't need them!

    After all I'd read I was still kinda surprised to find that Garth's answer was to lock more people up than we currently are.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1164 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Lyndon – I have asked for a copy of this letter but my understanding is that the PM did not have Judge Becroft’s permission to table that letter.
    It intrigues me because Judge Becroft has not been a supporter of boot camps in the past.

    I was at a lecture he gave a couple of weeks before that letter where he indicated that he didn't think they were very effective - quoted research showing that participants had a 90% recidivism rate (I presume that's international research).

    And then after the lecture he went out and bought Kronic. Down with the kids apparently.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Damian Christie,

    After all I'd read

    There's your difference :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    So pending further info I'll maintain my suspicion that in Becroft's letter any 'success' in the Fresh Start was administrative (apart from anything [or everything] else they haven't been going that long) and when asked if they could be expanded he said, "that is indeed possible".

    And he also mentioned some other programmes that really are working.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Ian MacKay, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Prisoners may be considered for parole after serving just 14 days

    A great read thank you Stephen. (Have saved it for another day.)
    I read somewhere else that the MSM in Finland were enlisted to stop using crime reporting as front page features. I guess the damage done to public perceptions by such over-reporting is universal. McVicar thrives on it.
    And I seem to remember reading somewhere, that after being in prison for about 28 days the deterrent effect wears off, and inmates start adjusting, or not, to the institutionalisation.

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Richard Aston,

    It was refreshing however to hear Bill English talk about the economic advantages of long term prevention over prisons

    Now if they could get Goff to follow suit..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    While I applaud the fact that SST are (supposedly) in the business of protecting victims' rights, it's a shame their policy stances will just create more and more victims to protect. It's not meant to be a "growth industry" folks.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston, in reply to Lyndon Hood,

    So pending further info I’ll maintain my suspicion that in Becroft’s letter any ‘success’ in the Fresh Start was administrative (apart from anything [or everything] else they haven’t been going that long) and when asked if they could be expanded he said, “that is indeed possible”.

    And he also mentioned some other programmes that really are working.

    Fresh Start is mainly about the "other programmes" the boot camps are a very minor part of the Fresh Start programme. The thrust is much more towards parenting programmes, drug and alcohol programmes, mentoring, supervision etc
    ie Working with youth offenders to effect change rather than punishing them. I have seen a good part of it and can see much worth in the approach.

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

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