Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Getting to the bottom of Apple and human cost

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  • Keir Leslie,

    Degrading and mind-numbing? It is possible to work on a factory floor and feel pride in what you do.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    The This American Life piece is being credited with Apple's (very) recent publishing information about practices in its supply chain - while it's a great piece it's probably more due to California passing a law requiring ALL companies to provide a supply chain statement on their web page - this law came into effect Jan 1st (and was aimed at Apple).

    (BTW This American Life is generally excellent and worth an hour a week in your podcasts)

    I think that China is in a stage along a path - they're growing their middle class which can only be a good thing - largely middle class countries tend to have too much to lose if they go to war - this is also what real wealth redistribution from the West to the 3rd world looks like - maybe not always pretty, but long term a good thing - eventually China's standard of living will rise and the factories will move to Vietnam, Burma, India and eventually Africa

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    And possibly the people there do. But the post I was responding to seemed to evince a kind of visceral revulsion to assembly line work per se, one which I and most others who are lucky to have the option of less repetitive work would probably share. I was just trying to say that this aspect is not unique to China. Other aspects, such as human rights and environmental protection, may be different and can be argued over, but there are some aspects of the job itself which do not change from country to country.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    There’s a massive emerging Asian middle class that will want these things

    And they earn their money how? By working at Foxconn?

    The classic model of embourgeoisment involves technology improvements being used to create (often unproductive) white-collar jobs whose holders identify with the ruling class.

    That relies on a few things:
    a. a sufficient rate of technological improvement
    b. the business owners / ruling class tolerating the creation of said white-collar jobs rather than just hoarding the surplus profits
    c. an adequacy of physical resources (fossil fuels, carbon sink capacity)

    We clearly don't have (c) anymore, and in states like China, (b) is pretty questionable. I'd even question the ability of the world to deliver (a) as education availability declines and innovation is increasingly stifled (and misapplied) by end-game government action.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Tom Beard,

    Would the assembly lines be appreciably more delightful to work on if they were in Wiri or Detroit? Most of us here are privileged enough that we’ve had plenty of career options beyond being cogs in the Fordist machine, so that being trapped in such a tedious job would seem degrading and mind-numbing. But for most of the people making most of our stuff, that has been a reality since well before the Chinese boom.

    And yet, there's a massive difference between working in the meat processing industry in New Zealand versus the US. The jobs are essentially the same -- the conditions are vastly different.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    The This American Life piece is being credited with Apple’s (very) recent publishing information about practices in its supply chain – while it’s a great piece it’s probably more due to California passing a law requiring ALL companies to provide a supply chain statement on their web page – this law came into effect Jan 1st (and was aimed at Apple).

    Did not know that. Thanks.

    I think that China is in a stage along a path – they’re growing their middle class which can only be a good thing – largely middle class countries tend to have too much to lose if they go to war – this is also what real wealth redistribution from the West to the 3rd world looks like – maybe not always pretty, but long term a good thing – eventually China’s standard of living will rise and the factories will move to Vietnam, Burma, India and eventually Africa

    When I visited Vietnam five years ago, the view there was very much that they did not want to simply be the next cheap outsourcing location. They were training a hell of a lot of programmers.

    But it was also pretty common for local programmers and engineers to sign up for six or 12 month contracts with Japanese manufacturers, where they'd work 12-hour shifts and save their money.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    Keir's got it.

    As for why anybody would want to work at Foxconn, perhaps I should've taken a few photos of a village I visited over Chinese New Year. And that wasn't even dire poverty.

    And for all of Foxconn's abuses (and Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korean bosses in general have pretty poor reputations here), yes [*warning: There are some really quite unpleasant photos in the following links] there is worse out here. Anybody remember the Shanxi brick kiln slavery scandal, or did that not make the news in NZ? Kids were being kidnapped off the streets of cities and towns in Henan, driven up into Shanxi, and forced to live and work in conditions that make Foxconn look like paradise.

    Russel's right, these issues are being talked about in China, and more. In fact, that NY Times article was translated into Chinese and published by Caixin (although I can't for the life of me remember where I found that link. Oh, and if you don't read Chinese, for crying out loud, do not use Google Translate), although so far I haven't seen any reaction. And as the ChinaSMACK links above demonstrate, these issues are also being discussed in indigenous fora as well as just translation of foreign reporting, and the discussions can be quite lively. Positive change is happening, but it'll be a long, slow process.

    And it's snowing here, but only just barely.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Russell Brown,

    They were training a hell of a lot of programmers

    The western geek community has developed, possibly unconsciously, some very effective strategies to fight back against mass-produced programmer teams in the developing world.

    Software frameworks that minimise typing and maximise head-scratching (Rails, I’m looking at you, but Spring is almost as good). Non-existent or bogus auto-generated documentation. Wisdom that’s passed on socially, ideally through unconferences held in expensive western countries that wouldn’t give your average Vietnamese aspirant a visa, even if they could stump up the airfare. A culture that puts a premium on free time spent hacking (which is hard when your boss expects a 12+ hour day on chargeable work).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    and in states like China, (b) is pretty questionable.

    Really? Cos I could walk 3km up the road and be in an area where most of the collars are white. Those that aren't are in jobs like security, maintenance, hospitality and transport to support those white collar jobs. China now has literary and cinema genres focussing on the white collar world (Du Lala, for example - I think the film's English title is Go Lala Go).

    Russell mentioned Vietnam's efforts to avoid being mere cheap outsourcing, China's central government has been pushing for years to move up the ladder in terms of technology, innovation, the cultural sector, and the service industry, among others. Basically, China wants to be what the US and Western Europe have been until now.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    Anybody remember the Shanxi brick kiln slavery scandal, or did that not make the news in NZ?

    I knew about it, but possibly only because I was in Asia at the time.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Russell Brown,

    That's disappointing, because it was bloody huge here. Still, I guess bricks aren't high on the list of items China exports, whereas Foxconn is making an awful lot of the gadgets in such high demand around the world.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Wisdom that’s passed on socially, ideally through unconferences held in expensive western countries that wouldn’t give your average Vietnamese aspirant a visa, even if they could stump up the airfare. A culture that puts a premium on free time spent hacking (which is hard when your boss expects a 12+ hour day on chargeable work).

    I didn’t get the impression that people were working 12+ hours a day, although one of the companies I visited at a large software park looked a very dull, mechanical place to be a programmer (the managers struck us as arseholes too). Other, smaller companies had quite different cultures.

    I went there with Mitchell Pham, who came to NZ as a boat-person refugee and has since expanded the software business he helped found here back into Vietnam. The time – especially meal times – I spent with the young people working there was a highlight of the trip. They were happy, ambitious and inquisitive. One of them had got through a few rounds of Vietnam Idol, so was a bit of a star. Elsewhere on the park you’d see kids hanging out on their scooters after work. Mitchell said there was so much work that there was huge workplace churn -- kids who didn't like one company went and worked for another one.

    I would submit that the place didn’t really resemble your description.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    China's central government has been pushing for years to move up the ladder in terms of technology, innovation, the cultural sector, and the service industry, among others.

    And it seems they've done far better at that than NZ has over the last decade.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    China wants to be what the US and Western Europe have been until now

    So who will actually make things?

    I'm guessing that a firm like Foxconn has a way lower proportion of headcount engaged in making powerpoints, mulling marketing strategy and schmoozing customers than a typical western firm. A bit like Ford in 1930 - mostly production line workers and a smaller cadre of foremen and draughtsmen.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Russell Brown,

    When I visited Vietnam five years ago, the view there was very much that they did not want to simply be the next cheap outsourcing location. They were training a hell of a lot of programmers.

    I think that everywhere wants to do that (you hear it here in NZ all the time) it's sort of the obvious move to bring in more wealth - we can't all have the high paying programming jobs

    Mind you India is a generation ahead of all of them, and has English as a common language - when I was designing chips for a living half the engineers in almost every design team were Indian ex-pats (all expected me to know everything about cricket) many have moved back home where they can have a higher standard of living - every company I've worked for since then has had an Indian team floating around somewhere.

    Mind you India in general has to get its act together business-wise - they seem to have appropriated the worst of victorian bureaucracy - I'm slated to visit another company's Indian design team ASAP - it's 2 weeks minimum for a business visa (and you have to surrender your passport) - I can get a China visa in Hong Kong with 24 hrs notice (otoh - 2 weeks is about right for the anti-malarials ....)

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Should that "But it makes 28% of the global revenue in phone manufacture" be "28% of the global revenue in smartphone manufacture amoung the eight major companies in the market"?
    My sense looking at the webpage, is that this maybe one of those statistics that are hard to track back to what they were actually sampling. Similarly, nowhere on the linked page is "global revenue" listed near the charts, and I've certainly seen confusion in other forums between the U.S. and Global and Smartphone and Phone markets.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    China's economy is not actually limited to making things for export, and there are an awful lot of jobs here that do involve powerpoints, marketing, schmoozing. There's also a fair bit of R&D.

    As for whose going to make stuff, for all the talk of the Pearl Delta's cheap manufacturing for export shifting to other developing countries, there's as much talk pointing out that those other developing countries don't have the infrastructure China has. And China is continuing to invest huge amounts in infrastructure. There are also huge regional disparities in development levels. As parts of China reach a more-or-less developed status, that developing country-style cheap, low margin manufacturing will shift to the less developed regions. For example, a lot of Beijing's heavy industry has been shifted out into Hebei (Shougang, for example).

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Sacha,

    And it seems they’ve done far better at that than NZ has over the last decade.

    In some respects, certainly, but it seems to me there are areas where NZ still has an edge over China, and not just in dairy. Weta would seem to me to be far ahead of the Chinese cinema in its special effects. Considering some of the crazy arse shit that did the rounds of the internet after the Wenchuan quake, some of which was attributed to actual seismologists, suggests to me that GNS is way ahead of its Chinese counterparts. But yes, NZ could and should be doing better.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    The race to the bottom of the barrel. The thing - the Chinese Thing - I find it hurlsome where political leaders, their like, the uber bureaucrats, ex ministers and treasury boffins start singing China's praises and holding China up as an example, implicitly or directly, as to why we should reform our Labour laws and work practices.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to DexterX,

    Attachment

    The race to the bottom of the barrel.

    Really?! Cos the China I live in is trying to work its way up, and so far as I can tell the current NZ government is trying to repeat the mistakes of the past with only a couple of minor tweaks in the hope it might actually work this time round, and those mistakes they're trying to repeat bear no resemblance to what's happening here in China. Also, just how often does anybody Western, politician, bureaucrat or media type, actually hold China up as a model to emulate?

    As for singing China's praises, you'll have to forgive me, but there is actually good stuff happening here, like all-electric taxis (pictured) and (if I may be permitted a link to my own blog) more investment in setting up experimental infrastructure for new energy (e.g. electric) and energy efficient (e.g. hybrid) vehicles.

    Of course, there is still plenty of bad stuff happening, like the recent cadmium spill in Guangxi or news today of a safety incident at a copper plant killing 3 and injuring 1. Even so, China is no more Mordor than it is the Promised Land.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Ross Mason,

    They missed a market. And it is a disruptive one.

    So effectively, Nokia is the IBM of the smartphone world -just as IBM failed to predict the personal computer boom and never regained pole position since, Nokia seems to have done the same with the Internet. And Apple is the new Microsoft, and Google is the new Apple.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    the China I live in is trying to work its way up, and so far as I can tell the current NZ government is trying to repeat the mistakes of the past

    Pretty much what I was noting above. We may be ahead in some areas, but this nation has made little concerted effort to improve compared with China. Until we address systemic matters like our low quality of leadership, we won't change fast enough to avoid becoming serfs to foreign capital (even more than we already are). Our children and grandchildren will be renters.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    Even so, China is no more Mordor than it is the Promised Land.

    Nicely put...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Sacha: (Hopeful this doesn't hijack this discussion too soon)

    Until we address systemic matters like our low quality of leadership, we won't change fast enough to avoid becoming serfs to foreign capital (even more than we already are).

    Bingo. But we threw the baby out....

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/6332446/Researcher-in-awe-of-trailblazing-training-system

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    Degrading and mind-numbing? It is possible to work on a factory floor and feel pride in what you do.

    Apparently there was a time when the acid test for that was when a factoryhand earned enough to buy the products they built - I believe it mostly applied to car factories.

    The Apple/Foxconn issue is part of a wider debate on globalisation and de-industrialisation. Heavy industry in the West a generation or two ago - before robots and computers - wasn't the most efficient model around, but it did provide an unwritten social compact where the low-skilled could easily climb up the social ladder.

    Now, the new jobs on the block - requiring specialised and travelable degree-level skills - are higher up on the rung, which much of the traditional working class has struggled to keep up with. And despite what they want you to believe, the so-called "rags-to-riches" stories of Paula Bennett and Herman Cain are the exception, rather than the rule. With a big emphasis on "so-called", because their grasp on economics and social mobility are shaky at best.

    It brings to mind "Rehumanise Yourself" by Sting & the Police: "I work all day at the factory/ I'm building a machine that's not for me/ There must be a reason that i can't see/ You've got to humanise yourself"

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

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