Hard News: Awesome
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here's a hug for Giovanni
(You are not alone)
[arrgghh - michael jackson earworm!! must.stop...] -
Because pregnant women always know exactly how pregnant they are?
They do by five months, the scans will do the trick. But in this case it's moot: since you're theory is a coverup, the five months wouldn't be an innocently reached guess but a timespan carefully designed to prove that she couldn't have given birth to Trig.
I'm not "banging on about it," I'm trying to puzzle out the basis for the enthusiastic embrace of it. It's meta.
Bullshit.
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Your suggestion that Palin should come to you with her medical records takes the cake.
Because that is what many US presidential candidates actually do. I have not seen anyone on this thread ask for these records, but if you want to be president, the price you pay for that is that your medical records, tax records, military records, and a list of your assets all wind up in the public domain. In some cases (assets and tax returns) there are disclosure requirements, but this is mostly a matter of candidates voluntarily providing the information. However, it is the done thing for presidential candidates to the point where a failure to provide this information would invite suspicion (although not, so far as I know, people seeking other public office), and Palin has voluntarily put herself in this position. No-one is arguing that this is a good thing (although given the gravity of the office, I am not sure it is a bad thing), but these are the rules of the game Palin has agreed to play.
Why in the world would she do that? Why lend credibility to such a repulsive and completely unsubstantiated rumour?
It is not unsubstantiated. My first reaction on reading this was it was both scurrilous and as bogus as claims that Obama is a closet Muslim. However, to my astonishment it turned out to be fairly close to the mark -- Palin's daughter is pregnant, and it has been kept quiet.
You might well point out that this is no-one's business but the young couple's, and in most circumstances I would agree with you -- but given this omission when Palin was "introduced" to the country, one cannot be blamed for wondering if there are other shoes left to drop.
To me, the point at issue here is simply whether it is mathematically possible for the first rumor to be true, rather than to speculate inappropriately about the private life of 17 year old girl. And it is relevant that dating pregnancies is a somewhat imprecise business. Nothing more.
And besides, what good would it do? Good ol' Jolisa would quickly come to the conclusion that these records are not worth the paper they are written on, just like the opinion of her doctor on the risks she took flying home to have her baby are not worth the breath they were spoken with.
To be honest, doctor or not, I am pretty astonished that anyone would get on a plane in these circumstances. Especially with a somewhat premature baby.
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here's a hug for Giovanni
I just look at your Gravatar and it's all the help I need.
Interesting piece, including the part that describes exactly what happened in this very forum:There's a weird pivot on this story. What started as 'she wasn't pregnant!' is morphing into Palin getting attacked for her choice (after talking to her doctor) to go back home to Alaska after her amniotic fluid began a small leak.
Except for the detail that her doctor had told her to put her feet up, not to fly home. (But even that advice is inconsistent with the idea that they realised she was in actual labour).
Kos not deleting the diary is and will remain a stain on the netroots movement in the US for some time to come, methinks.
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Like bristols and hands and Andrew's birthday party.
Oo er... that sounds like the sort of party that gives an old man a dirty reputation.
"Bristols" always reminds me of the glaswegian biology teacher at school in Wales (in my 12th year on the planet) , we had to dissect earthworms & she prattled on about the multiple pairs of bristles sported by your typical worm. Young Geraint Lewis was having seizures trying to keep the laughing in.
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Because that is what many US presidential candidates actually do.
And she will, in due course, naturally. Which is another strong indication that the conspiracy theory is unfounded - it's not as if she would have accepted the nomination knowing that something like that would have come out.
But in the meantime why not let the liberals dig themselves a Washington monument-sized grave?
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Very august occasion though, for a calendrical pedant
If you haven't already, you'll love The Calender: Humanity's Epic Struggle to Determine a True and Accurate Year by David Ewing Duncan
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I understand your feeling of distaste. But I honestly don't think it's a (thought)crime to observe the passing parade and wonder whether this particular empress might not be wearing clothes, and may also have neglected to dress her children, who should thus be removed from the float forthwith for their own sake.
No, its not. But it IS a particularly personal subject (I apologise for the use of "smear" before, it detracted from argument) that should not be tossed around as lightly and without basis as Kos did it.
Take an interest - fine. Investigate it - sure. But do it carefully, sensitively and with recognition that the nature and impact of the suggestion is such that you should be pretty solid on the facts before just throwing them up on the interweb.I stress that my criticism is largely levelled at Kos et al who didn't take that approach at all. If Russell, Jolita etc feel that they did and considered the facts were warranted enough to post discussion on then fair enough.
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Bullshit.
Please! You're one of PAS's most articulate posters; I'm sure you can converse without swearing at me.
Perhaps this is a cultural difference? I am writing from the US, spent the day talking with locals of various stripes; nobody wants to believe but it neither can they not talk about it. It's all up for discussion (on a theoretical level) because we are curious people and we sense we're being seriously played here, wheels within wheels. There's an intense degree of paranoia about it all, and I'm fascinated, in a Pynchonian sort of way.
it's not as if she would have accepted the nomination knowing that something like that would have come out.
Ah, but think of the context. It's not as if Edwards would have run for President knowing that something like his affair would have come out. They do it anyway. And so the scepticism.
But in the meantime why not let the liberals dig themselves a Washington monument-sized grave?
I sense I'm a handy target for something else you're angry about, and that we're actually on the same page. Could you explain? Without swear words?
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Poor Giovanni. I will give him a hug if he wants, but I do wish he would settle down. Chelsea Clinton was roughly the same age as Bristol when John McCain made this joke about her. Offensive, homophobic, a nasty crack about a young woman's appearance, and COMPLETELY gratuitous, but the world kept spinning on its axis.
Or witness the recent flurry of rumors that one of the Bush daughters (albeit in their early 20s) was up the duff which given the passage of time, are now comprehensively debunked.
But in the meantime why not let the liberals dig themselves a Washington monument-sized grave?
Let's try not to completely lose our perspective here.
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here's another hug for Giovanni
They're coming thick and fast now!Kos not deleting the diary is and will remain a stain on the netroots movement in the US for some time to come, methinks.
Valid opinion, but I also see merit in leaving it up (with suitable Updates) so that those hearing about it can see where the original firestorm came from. Besides, if they pull it someone else will post a copy and claim KOS were trying to deny/hide what they started.
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Please! You're one of PAS's most articulate posters; I'm sure you can converse without swearing at me.
I've been articulate for the last ten pages or so. It's got me exactly nowhere. And your Pynchonian fascination is an attempt at playing it cute which I'm not inclined to buy. I chose the word that reflected that state of mind more accurately and succinctly.
At the other end of your meta-elucubrations, are two women whose life is going to be hard enough in the next little while. They're going to be copping a lot from their own side, and them are the breaks; I'd like my side to show a whole different attitude. And not just because it's the politically intelligent thing to do (although it is that too). But because it's the decent thing to do. And no, I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be discussed in good fun, without complicity.
, but think of the context. It's not as if Edwards would have run for President knowing that something like his affair would have come out. They do it anyway.
Hoping that an affair won't be discovered is a risk. Knowing that your medical records are going to become public means a 100% chance of getting caught.
Although, for the umpteenth time, you know, Sarah Palin was pregnant with Trig. And I invite you not so much to look at the photo, but to read the testimony of the Alaskan journalists.
So long as you want a meta-layer to consider, I personally find it very interesting that multiple testimonies (the various medical personnel whose silence we are assuming, and the people with no personal stake who came out and confirmed she was pregnant) are always considered inconsequential, whereas photos - that can be doctored in no time - are 'proof'. Go figure.
But in the meantime why not let the liberals dig themselves a Washington monument-sized grave?
I sense I'm a handy target for something else you're angry about, and that we're actually on the same page. Could you explain? Without swear words?
You're far from a handy target, I admire you're writing a great deal. But true, I'm angry at this whole thing obiovusly, and especially angry at the fact that it didn't come out on the National Enquirer, but on Daily Kos, which love it or hate is a major organiser of progressive causes and campaigns. The longer all these liberal voices (Sullivan is another) stew in this particular pot, the more... tattery? their reputation will be at the end of it all, and the easier it will be to paint Obama as complicit - he's already had to come out on this like a ton of bricks. He needs this to stop now.
Handy distraction, too, from Bristol's pregnancy in and of itself. My personal theory: they didn't know she was pregnant. At least not McCain. I just don't buy it.
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Chelsea Clinton was roughly the same age as Bristol when John McCain made this joke about her. Offensive, homophobic, a nasty crack about a young woman's appearance, and COMPLETELY gratuitous, but the world kept spinning on its axis.
Especially as far as you and me are concerned, yes.
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Perhaps this is a cultural difference? I am writing from the US, spent the day talking with locals of various stripes; nobody wants to believe but it neither can they not talk about it.
This occurred to me too: you're in a different environment, where everyone is talking about it.
I can't completely stifle my curiosity either. On Levi's sister's MySpace page (now deleted) there are pictures of her with the Palin family (including Trig) and the one with Sarah refers to her as "my mother-in-law".
If things are that chummy, why didn't they just say Bristol was going to get married, instead of leaving Palin's own spokesman (and by the look of it, the McCain team too) none the wiser until the day after her nomination? It really does look like they were trying to hide an issue that jibed with the moral image they were seeking to project.
That has implications. And you only find those out by talking about it.
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You're far from a handy target, I admire you're writing a great deal. But true, I'm angry at this whole thing obiovusly, and especially angry at the fact that it didn't come out on the National Enquirer, but on Daily Kos
But the other part -- Palin's risky behaviour -- "came out" in an ordinary newspaper, back in April, and, as I noted, an obstetrician was quoted saying (I paraphrase): WTF?
Is it not okay to talk about something that was in a newspaper?
And as Richard noted, the release of medical records is a perfectly conventional thing for people running for presidential office (if you're actually in office, they're public anyway). Why doesn't Palin just do it now? It is interesting.
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But the other part -- Palin's risky behaviour -- "came out" in an ordinary newspaper, back in April, and, as I noted, an obstetrician was quoted saying (I paraphrase): WTF?
You persist in thinking it's any of your business, which mistifies me a bit. Also, why is the opinion of a random obstetrician important, and that of her own doctor isn't? To reiterate, the fact that he told her to not give the speech and take a rest (as opposed to finding herself some local care in the expectation of giving birth) indicates to me neither of them thought she was anywhere near active labour.
Why doesn't Palin just do it now? It is interesting.
I don't know. Has Biden released his? McCain's took ages to be released. Partly it has to do with the fact that they need some time to be assembled. She's been a candidate for how long, four days?
But you're persisting with the insanity. What are you expecting to find in these records?
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McCain's took ages to be released.
They did, however, contain this immortal sentence:
'His buttocks are unremarkable except for some very light tan freckling.'
I'm going to say the wait was worth it.
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'His buttocks are unremarkable except for some very light tan freckling.'
Amazin'.
The Father-Badger, writhing in a cave,
Shrieked out "Return my sons!
You shall have buns," he shrieked, "if you'll behave!
Yea, buns, and buns, and buns!"Lewis Carroll, The Three Badgers
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You persist in thinking it's any of your business, which mistifies me a bit
As a public figure, the actions she takes are in the public interest (we get a pass as observers), far more so than the vacuous doings of Spears, Lohan and Hilton, which are only in the public fascination.
Even as a State Governor, that's the case, although an argument could be made that it was really only the business of Alaskans. Now, she's an international figure because VPOTUS just IS by definition. Her doings ARE our business because they could affect the way we live. We have every right, therefore, to ask questions and discuss.
To reiterate, the fact that he told her to not give the speech and take a rest (as opposed to finding herself some local care in the expectation of giving birth) indicates to me neither of them thought she was anywhere near active labour.
But she didn't do that, either. She chose her own course which many find to be more than odd, even a little reckless. There are all sorts of reasons I could postulate for why but you wouldn't like them and, besides, I don't want to go there any more than you.
BUT - if I was Alaskan, I would be asking why the head of state government ignored expert advice and put herself and her youngest citizen at risk, and what that says about her judgement. And if I was a USAnian at all, I'd be asking it even harder now that she's putting herself forward to be #2 to hold the Football.
McCain's took ages to be released.
Did I miss something? The link above pointed to them being released in 1999 when he was vying with W for the Republican nomination.
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Prediction:
Palin will pull out of VP stakes, saying the personal attacks on her family/daughter are beyond what she was prepared for and family comes first. Rightwing MSM will attack Leftwing Blogosphere. Pushpolling will confirm X% of voters believe Obama/Obama Campaign was behind the smears. PUMA's return to the fray, outraged.
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You're far from a handy target, I admire you're writing a great deal. But true, I'm angry at this whole thing obiovusly, and especially angry at the fact that it didn't come out on the National Enquirer, but on Daily Kos, which love it or hate is a major organiser of progressive causes and campaigns. The longer all these liberal voices (Sullivan is another) stew in this particular pot, the more... tattery? their reputation will be at the end of it all,
I have no particular love for the Daily Kos -- it is shrill and partisan and always has been. I find their aims much more agreeable than those of right wing bloggers and bloviators, but they enjoy nothing better than a wiff of Republican scandal (I am pretty sure they were all over Senator Larry "Wide Stance" Craig, back in the day, too.) And my reading is that Obama is actually far more centrist than the Daily Kos and co would like, when it comes right down to it, as well.
But to say it again, to the extent the story is "Palin hushes up daughter's pregnancy" the Daily Kos had it right. They were wrong about the details, but if your daughter is engaged to be married, and will have a baby before the inauguration, you might have mentioned it in the circumstances. Especially when "Perky Mom of 5" seems to be one of principal qualifications for high office.
So simply asking whether the second half of the original story is potentially true is harmless. Especially when we are posting comments to a small (sorry PA!) blog in a distant country when the New York Times has already covered the existence of the rumor.
And to the extent it already seems that she was not properly vetted by McCain's team, it raises questions about his judgement as well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html?hp
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And to the extent it already seems that she was not properly vetted by McCain's team, it raises questions about his judgement as well.
Somebody somewhere suggested moving on from Troopergate, Babygate, etc, and going directly to Vettinggate.
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It just gets weirder
If a small-town mayor ever ruled with an iron fist — it was Palin. Eleven days after taking office in 1996, she mailed letters to each of the city’s top managers requesting that they resign as a test of loyalty.
The Anchorage Daily News at the time reported the strange events: (via Nexis)
Mayor Sarah Palin sent the resignation requests Thursday to Police Chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak and Mary Ellen Emmons, the head of libraries. A fifth director — John Cooper, who oversaw the city museum — resigned earlier this month after Palin eliminated his position. -
Did I miss something? The link above pointed to them being released in 1999 when he was vying with W for the Republican nomination.
Well, yes, obviously you missed all the health that has occurred to him between 1999 and 2008.
And btw, no, Biden hasn't released his health records yet, and they ought to be more interesting than Palin's since he had an aneurysm. The campaign has said they will be released at an unspecified later date. Link.
I take your earlier point about why we should care about Palin's birthing choices, Russell said much the same the other day, but I respectfully disagree that it's fair game. Not from the pro-choice camp, at least - she doesn't owe us her health nor that of her unborn child, I would have thought. And the story is pretty murky, a mix of self-aggrandizing on her part and the usual crap reporting we get when it comes to these medical issues.
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But to say it again, to the extent the story is "Palin hushes up daughter's pregnancy" the Daily Kos had it right.
Yours is an incredibly generous reading of a despicable piece of writing that I invite you to go back and re-read. The link is either somewhere in this thread or in the Go US thread (Graeme I think posted it originally). If you think that "they hushed something up" is a saving grace, then your stomach is plenty stronger than mine, my friend.
The story, in fact, had it all wrong. It alleged criminal and appaling behaviour, when in fact the actual behaviour was, you know, perfectly natural and fine. Sex among consenting teenagers and conception out of wedlock - is it something the liberals are going to attack now?
And what do you mean that the pregnancy was hushed up? Where's the duty of disclosure? Are children's personal choices fair game now too? Can I reiterate that we don't need to mirror republican behaviour in our attacks? Plus, you know, they'll embarass themselves if we leave them to it.
So simply asking whether the second half of the original story is potentially true is harmless.Especially when we are posting comments to a small (sorry PA!) blog in a distant country.
It's not as if I can't see that I might have got this completely out of proportion. But go and reread the Kos diary. I had strong flashes of messieur Faurisson when I read it, I was honestly quite incensed. I'm not accusing anybody of Holocaust denial here, let me be super-clear. But what the hell are we doing discussing this garbage? What good does it serve? Are the subjects not actual people? Are the accusations not preposterous, the arguments used not vile and sexist? Is it not, at the end of the day, completely and utterly disproven and wrong?
I have a beautifully crafted and articulate argument somewhere in my head about the role of PA in the national discussion and the fact that our distance from the geographical centre of the events is immaterial. But at the moment all that my synapses have come up is: grmrmmrbbdffff. If the clouds should clear, I'll let you know.
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