Hard News: Of Monsters and Old Boys
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Reason #1 is right there.
Damn that Post button eh? Just too easy to click sometimes (never been there myself...:)
Reason #2 is that I don't believe that the wealthy (and anyone who can afford private education on top of all the other costs of bringing up kids is wealthy, in my book) have the right to pass their privilege onto their children.
Not sure about "right", but I think there's a sound economic theory. This is going to sound deliberately inhuman...
Releasing productive potential is about making sure human capital is exploited. So it's simply about offering the maximum opportunity for the smartest people to get the best education.
Because it isn't the intelligence of the child that counts in selecting a school (broadly speaking - the tests aren't that hard.. especially if you're the "right" sort of candidate...), that means the children of the smartest parents get the best education in a highly liberal market education system - and because intelligence is only a bit hereditary (I'm sure someone here will find the references for me - I've just got off a 7 hour conference call, gimme a break) that means market failure.
You get a double whammy in a highly standardised education system (like the public systems in France and the USA) which appears to drive innovation out of schooling - lowest common denominator - so not only is the best education being wasted in many cases, the best pupils are being poorly served.
On top of all that, parents often think they can substitute a "good" school for a good upbringing. It was my Dad sitting down with me to help me understand long division and (later) electronic engineering that I am sure enabled me to do OK. I'm not saying the teachers aren't important, but their efforts fail without that support.
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Surely it should be given the additional recognition of becoming a decile 11 or 12 school.
Our deciles go up to eleven!
Way off topic, the element controls on my cooktop go to twelve.
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the element controls on my cooktop go to twelve.
The cooktop go up to 12?Controls?
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the element controls on my cooktop go to twelve.
Well yes, because you purchased said cooktop in a good God-fearing market economy...
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Slightly OT but the monsters in the headline made me think of this:
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While I was at uni, I dated a bloke from Auckland Grammar. His mother was absolutely horrified to discover that, despite my decile three high school, I'd passed bursary with better marks than her kids at AGS and EGGS, and was getting straight A's at uni (her son had failed one paper that semester). She just couldn't believe that good teachers, parental support, and my own attempts at hard work meant somewhat more in my education than her own version of academic achievement (throw money at it).
She's not the only parent I've run across with a similar mind set, and I find it quite sad.
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Surely it should be given the additional recognition of becoming a decile 11 or 12 school.
Oh great now there's going to be some National cabinet minister actually asking that question ....
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Some basic questions that I don't know answers to (and would rather PAoogle than Google):
- Decile 10 schools receive a lower per-pupil rate of Govt funding in order to balance out "educational challenges for lower income groups", yeah? So where is the supposed educational benefit to a Decile 10 school? Is the lower funding completely overcompensated by increased parental "donations" and that's it? -
So where is the supposed educational benefit to a Decile 10 school?
Having kids of higher socioeconomic status, that (on average) come from families where education is more promoted and valued, and are therefore easier to teach. You also get far fewer ESL kids and also fewer special needs kids on account of the fact that having special needs kids often pushes a family down the income ladder.
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Hell yes. There is, not far from us, a school in a very wealthy neighbourhood that has a nasty reputation for being actively hostile towards special-needs children. They really don't want them spoiling things.
Funny coincidence, we have an Education Minister like that. She was on One in Five a while back, saying that the special needs kids needed to be schooled separately and observing that the Autistic kids could find a normal school environment very distressing.
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Oh great now there's going to be some National cabinet minister actually asking that question ....
Well, yes, because they all read PAS for inspiration...
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observing that the Autistic kids could find a normal school environment very distressing.
That's very true. And putting them somewhere else (where they can be more easily ignored) is so much easier than fixing the "normal" school.
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Right, Giovanni, so Decile 10 schools are "more desirable" because the nature of the kids attending makes teaching more difficult?
Genuine question, I'm trying to work out why Grammar is supposedly more desirable and "betterer" than a similar sized low-decile school. Conceptually the lower decile school will be better funded - the counters to that seem to be private donations and nature of the kids attending.
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LESS difficult =(
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I'm trying to work out why Grammar is supposedly more desirable and "betterer" than a similar sized low-decile school
A lot of it is perception, that Grammar boys are somehow enhanced simply by being on the premises. It's not unique to Grammar - Christ's is similar in Chch, and W(h)anganui Collegiate used to also be seen like that. Scots in Wellington had that sort of gloss for a while, at least when I was at school - being good catholic boys at St Pats, we tended to regard the Snots Porridge boys as sissies ;-) .
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A lot of it is perception, that Grammar boys are somehow enhanced simply by being on the premises. It's not unique to Grammar - Christ's is similar in Chch, and W(h)anganui Collegiate used to also be seen like that. Scots in Wellington had that sort of gloss for a while, at least when I was at school - being good catholic boys at St Pats, we tended to regard the Snots Porridge boys as sissies ;-) .
And St Andrews in ChCh was in the news for the wrong reasons a little over 10 years ago - its boarding house prefects were very publicly revoked of their duties after they abused their powers a step too far.
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Right, Giovanni, so Decile 10 schools are "less desirable" because the nature of the kids attending makes teaching more difficult?
Yes. Privileged families would like their children to mix with children of other privileged families. Nothing new there. Whether that leads to excellence in teaching and learning, that is an entirely different kettle of fish. All I can say from a personal point of view is that we are enormously happy with the low decile school that our children attend and it's not as if we couldn't have opted for a much higer decile just up the road instead.
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Whether that leads to excellence in teaching and learning, that is an entirely different kettle of fish. All I can say from a personal point of view is that we are enormously happy with the low decile school that our children attend and it's not as if we couldn't have opted for a much higer decile just up the road instead.
Well that's bloody good news and a sign things are working pretty well.
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Mark,
You may be the first ever person to equate Scots with Collegiate and Christs.
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Lower decile schools are better funded because they NEED it to be on a par educationally. Hence any consideration of "better" is on other grounds such as exam passes or social connections.
(But then again, when my daughter went to a dec 10 primary school in Auckland, just the primary school fair could raise $90k, never mind donations and other fundraising. I don't know what the funding gap between them and a decile 5 or 1 school would have been but I suspect it was well covered)
But the desirability of a "good" school is partly about the kind of kids you believe your kids will mix with, and the hope or fear that the other kids' qualities will rub off on yours.
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I presume there are studies that attempt to level external factors and determine the best-fit indicator of educational success? My google-fu ain't good enough to find them though.
It seems to me that high-decile schools are the ones that show up in Highest Score, Biggest Scholarship type reporting - this could be due to a better environment, greater access to learning outside of the school, or a more richly funded school from private donation (quasi-private) that outweighs the "deficit" from being higher decile.
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This is of course the ultimate scam by the Epsom whitefellas. Back in the late 90's and early noughties nearly everyone flogged the family pile off to a recent arrival usually from south east asia occasionally from Mt Roskill. Made a huge profit and built something suitably tasteless out beyond the black stump. The major selling point for the former pile - <B>That it was in the Grammar zone.</B> was blissfully ignored while the young'uns were still biting ankles, what. Anyway they could always go to St Kent's - maybe heaven forefend even Kings, on the interest from the return on the buckets of cash that were got for the pile.
Reality check. Washissname the slimy chap from 4c ran off with the take from selling Shipherd's Ave and put his finance company under. There is no money left for young Tristram's schooling and bugger me dead Grammar won't take him even though they know he will be the 4th generation Thickaspigshit to attend the school! Say they would like to but can't. Saythat the Education Ministry commies and dykes would come down on 'em like a ton of bricks!
So we'll get Richard and Rodney to amend the education act - abolish school zoning That way our children can get into Grammar ahead of the 'Asians' we sold our children's Grammar place to when we sold our Epsom piles. Then when the already depressed property market realises the grammar zone no longer exists and the house in Epsom prices fall even further we'll pick up the old house for a song.
That way when Tristam Thickaspigshit finishes school - by which time Labour getsback in government and reinstates school zoning, we'll flog the pile off to some other mug fresh off the boats.
Seriously this is the thinking that goes on among these parasitical scum. And although they may be cunning as shit house rats, they aren't smart.
I did a lag at Grammar in the 60's and was accidentally stuck in the top class for a while. Back in those days they didn't have strict zoning. If you lived in the zone you were allowed in, but they took 30% of kids from outside the zone. There were two others besides myself from within the zone that were in the top class - everyone else in 3a was creamed outta other schools (mostly west Auckland co-eds).
All the 'not white' kids who weren't jewish were crammed into 3cgen and 3dgen 40 to a form - only 26 in 3a.
No that's not right I had a mate, a Samoan bloke (also from within the zone) who did even better they I did in their asinine entrance exam. His parents were summoned by he who must be obeyed and told that their kind didn't do well at Latin and therefore their son was going to be put in 3agen not the 3a to which he was entitled.
The kid went down to 3ag and despite the best efforts of all staff to hinder him he consistently came top of class and outscored any of his classmates by a country mile.
Obviously some sort of long term strategy was needed to ensure this chap didn't cause any 'trouble' in the 5th and 6th form by getting really high marks in public exams. Even in those days Grammar was not popular with the education ministry commies and questions would be asked if their streaming contained such a large discrepancy.A couple of the more slimy and malleable prefects were tasked with getting rid of my friend at the start of his 4th form year.
They pursued the fellow mercilessly during lunch times and decided that he was showing his 'uppityness' by keeping his hands in his pockets when they spoke to him so one decided to try and physically remove this much younger and smaller pupil's hands from his pockets. The young fella demurred and dropped the prefect like the sack of shit he was.
Aha end of problem a pupil who had been quiet and academically over-achieving was expelled on the spot when he who must be obeyed learned one of his favourite ass lickers had been given a well deserved hiding by the kid.Of course Grammar claims things have changed since then. On the surface some things have altered as the NZ culture has evolved but after meeting and greeting some of the current crop of Grammar boys I would have to say the mindset is the same as it ever was.
I moved out of the Grammar zone as my own sons reached their adolescence. Not to make money on the property bubble but because I love my kids and there is no way I would want them to be subjected to the warped thinking that such schools promulgate.
The 'boys only' thing whereby the only female some Grammar boys talk with during their secondary education, is their mum, is particularly mind-bending.
Even now whenever I hear some Grammar alumni talking,be it some businessperson or some minor sporting hero on the TV, I can still hear the echoes of that boastful ego-tripping that I and all my schoolmates acquired there, and which many of us worked hard to rid ourselves of.
If a strict zone is kept in place for another decade so that Grammar can no longer cream from other regions the school will be shown to be just another state school whose successes depend on the quality of effort the teaching staff put in. No more free rides. That means the other less appealing facets of the school could no longer be excused and would have to be addressed. -
Actually I think the 'we need to let in more sons of old boys' actually means 'there be too many asians here.'
Well sucked in to them then 'cos now there's a ton of Asian old boys. :D
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You may be the first ever person to equate Scots with Collegiate and Christs.
Apart from the poor sods who went there.
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Did that violent criminal scum Veitch go to Grammar?
Note: that isn't libellous, he has just been convicted of a violent criminal offence. Unfortunately not jailed (what happened to refusal to accept guilt being an aggravating factor?) but maybe he'll Archer himself at some stage.
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