THIS JUST IN

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  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Steve - As the SAS have the anti-terror role in NZ & have recently formed a new domestic based force it was interesting the police took charge of the raid on Ruatoki.
    Oh & I shud stick with licenced. Anyone can go off 1/2 cocked ;)

    AS - I agree on military semi-autos.

    Our firearms licences don't require the holder to be able to shoot. This is the fundamental difference with the licencing requirements for say driving/flying/teaching etc. The personal checks are made on the probability of things known they won't go crazy or sell them to crims - not that they can shot straight (Cat A)- This needs to be changed.

    You seriously don't think a personal arsenal of 150 firearms including pistols is acceptable?

    This is where our laws on what can be owned are loose in comparison with Australia - After Port Arthur they had mass demolition of firearms.

    I would like to see chapter & verse of the Police Act (if you've got it & the time to spare), just they're been a bit tardy with detail of late - WOFs etc.

    I would still be more comfortable if all police & NZDF had the same licence as the general public, even if receive at an accelerated rate.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    I would like to see chapter & verse of the Police Act (if you've got it & the time to spare)

    Teh Police Act 1958 ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    Shep, you are correct, the licenses don't teach people how to shoot. That is something that people do need to learn, but there are a large number of clubs and experienced people that do give a great deal of their time to teach people who are new to shooting.

    Don't forget, the number of gun related fatalities (excluding suicide) and injuries is very, very low.

    The Australian laws don't seem to have done a great deal to reduce the incidence of guns in criminal activity though, and that is my point. Those who obey the laws suffer, while those who continue to ignore the law aren't really affected.

    The mass demolitions you speak of were the guns of those who obeyed the law, and it was them that were punished by a knee-jerk reaction to a tragedy. Such rules only affect the law abiding. It is unlikely to change the behaviour of those who don't. I can't see how punishing those who obey the law, in order to look like we're cracking down on those who don't will actually change anything for the better.

    I would term 150 firearms to be a fairly substantial collection, I don't think I would want the responsibility that came with such a collection myself (i.e. constantly worrying if anyone knows you own firearms, is your family a target for a home invasion to try to extort those firearms etc.), but I wouldn't say it isn't acceptable. The owner was obeying the law and I would have thought that each purchase would have been approved by the police, and unless the owner was selling them to criminals, he wasn't the one breaking the law when they were stolen.

    Again, my point is we should be condemning criminal behaviour, not attempting to criminalise legal behaviour.


    in terms of the license for police and NZDF, I think you answered yourself earlier. It largely is the quality of the training, and the ability to safely use firearms which should be more of a focus for our armed services (and I'm pretty sure the police counts as an armed service).

    On the SAS point, I've noticed this in a number of comments, and I keep wondering why we would propose not to use the police, who despite all the criticism are trained to arrest people, or whether we would prefer to send the SAS in, who as far as I can tell tend to excel in taking out insurgents by a variety of means.

    I think that personally, I would much rather be arrested than dead....

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Speaking of which, Kyle, I think you are being disingenuous that in the context

    I know that they have powers to do with mental health, what about a spaz who knowingly puts themselves in danger?

    to mean

    "an idiot who decides to ignore the helpful police officer who is telling him/her 'hey, do not walk down the street there is a person with a gun down there'"

    That's not me being disingenous, just unclear, which happens sometimes. I'll clarify. Set A: mental health powers, and Set B: spaz who knowingly puts themselves in danger are exclusive sets and shouldn't be considered to be linked or related.

    My question is, I know they have powers to restrain people in relation to mental health, what powers do they have to restrain people outside of mental health? Y'know, just an ordinary Joe who's walking down the street and says "screw you cops, you can't tell me where I can't go" and tries to walk into a danger zone.

    I'ld dispute masked police as a safety measure. It is clearly a matter of hiding their identification when engaged in terror activities

    You say this because of your experience with policing? You were police officer? You've read up on it? You know some members of AOS and they told you that's the reason?

    AOS members have a uniform. When there's a callout, they come in, get briefed, get their uniform on, and go out. The uniform includes the balaclava, and an officer would get in trouble with his commissioned officer if he didn't have it on. They wear the same uniform anytime they're on AOS duty. The rest of the time they're ordinary cops.

    The AOS don't come in another colour, it's black, armed, and really scary. The question isn't how they should dress, because these are the people who got sent in to do house to house searches at night trying to find David Gray who owned a military style automatic rifle with a sniper sight, and who'd already killed one cop. They're not there for community service and teaching kids how to cross the road safely. They're there to be as good as they can at hunting down and neutralising armed offenders, and keeping themselves and the public safe.

    In case it's not clear, they wear black clothing and black balaclavas because when it gets dark and someone is trying to shoot them, it makes them harder to see. It's not some big plot to scare people in Ruatoki, really.

    The question is, should the AOS have been there not what they wear when they're on a callout.

    Didn't the AOS shoot each other at Aromoana?

    Umm. Are you making this up?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    AS - a death is a death & should be counted as such suicides and all.

    I'm not against firearm ownership and see a real need to increase the destruction of pests. I really would like shooting courses to be part of firearms ownership & a greater restriction on weapons. Even a central armoury for weapons to be kept - rather than at homes - although not practicle for rural owners.

    Regarding the SAS it is really a matter of duplication, once we cross the Terror line the ball is passed to the SAS. We now seem to be financing two anti-terror units - where IMO there is very little for any but I'll happily finance one.

    Thanks Steve - I'll have a squiz now.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    Shep, fair enough, I said excluding suicides because to my mind they didn't really count as violence against others, which was how I had interpreted gun related fatalities. I'm reasonably sure that even including them, the rate is still extremely low.

    I'm not sure, but I had thought that the AOS, STG etc. were all serving police, who carried out normal duties as well as the occasional specialised call out. I may be completely wrong, but to my mind that kind of equated to a two for one deal. I had also thought that the SAS weren't specifically counter-terror, but trained for urban activities amongst other things, which I'd also thought equated to a two for one type of deal too. I can't claim to be any expert on this though.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Kyle, the term "spaz" originated in the early 1960s in the UK and was a derogatory corruption of the word Spastic, I know I was there. I am not overly PC in fact I have been known to be overtly rude and obnoxious, ask either of my friends, but in this forum I cringe when I here such terms used even if in ignorance, sorry.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    AS - I fear they're competing for that role.

    Kyle - some wiki magic:

    The police returned fire and a two minute gun-battle ensued in which one policeman was shot in the ankle by a stray bullet that passed through the crib.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramoana_massacre

    This is what can happen when cops surround their target, rather than flank it.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Steve I couldn't find what I was looking for in the Police Act- any pointers?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Lordy, haven’t you lot been busy… Don’t you have jobs to go to?

    Neil: I usually resist the temptation to respond to argumentum ad hominem but I have chosen to be flattered by you thinking I’m a recent convert(and it gives me the chance to show off). I’m glad I’m still passionate about my ideals. It’s 25 years since I was arrested protesting against the Springbok Tour. My life’s work (aside from the primary occupation of raising a happy and healthy family) is in the area of comparative culture, I teach ethnicity and identity, semiotics and post-structuralist research methodology. I have to be much more restrained and balanced in terms of my personal/political opinions in class, so it is nice to be able to rant a bit in this forum. And I totally know that there are other people with these understandings who take more moderate positions. I hope to challenge some of the complacency that moderate positions can allow to creep in. I think that radical shifts of attitude can help open doors to incremental social change.

    Finn: The potential for the Northern Irish connection, or a Maori arguing pro-police was why I put the “probably” in my post. Interestingly enough many anglo-celtic settlers in NZ will also have been shoved off their ancestral lands through the enclosures or clearances in the UK in the 1800’s. The thing is that most of “us” don’t actually experience direct alienation from our culture on a daily basis. NZ’s dominant culture (legal, political, economic and education systems; housing, food, holidays, clothing, body language, as well as the most fundamental tangible aspect of culture, i.e. language) is directly related to our own cultures of origin. In effect, we’ve made it the dominant culture. My language is both emotive and accurate. I think if you can know that people – real individuals – were beaten as children for speaking their native language at school, right up until the late 1960’s, and NOT have some emotional response there is something wrong. The foundation of ethical behaviour is empathy.

    As for armed political groups, well I think people have a right to defend themselves. If my homeland was overrun by outsiders and my only chance to protect my land, family and culture was by fighting I’m pretty sure that’s what I’d do, despite my intellectual attraction to pacifism. The possibility of having to defend themselves* was, at worst, what Tame Iti and his lot were working on up there in the hills. I know and trust one of the highly respected leaders of Tuhoe and I know that ATTACK is not on their agenda. I suspect that the snail savers weren’t out to hurt anyone either. As I said before, there is one egomaniac among the 17 who I’d consider dangerous with a gun, but I don’t think he has any ideology to speak of except self-promotion.
    *Note: Elephant right here.

    Blindjackdog: The word you are looking for is “individualism.” In Ethnicity and Identity, the class I love the most is the one on the Western ideology of individualism. So many 1st years will sit there claiming that they have sprung whole and unencumbered by the fetters of family, culture, fashion or tradition (let alone subconscious representational semantics), and are then dumbstruck as I point out the uniform (of the day) they are wearing: mostly a variation on tee shirt and jeans. The very fact of our belief that we are not cultural is one of the most prominent artifacts of Western culture and the ideology of individualism masks all kinds of structural inequality.

    I totally agree with your analysis of racism. I think we owe a lot to queer theory in exploring internalised oppression and revealing the psychological pervasiveness of racism, sexism, homophobia etc.

    And I’m a second generation Wigger/Nigger lover. Beat that.
    (ps i love you)

    General: Oh I’m getting tired of the back and forward about weapons, uniforms; what can be used for hunting or wilderness survival vs engendering mass panic. (See “they weren’t going to use them against us comments above”). We all see what we want to see from the same evidence.

    What I want to know is:
    What kind of weapons were they looking for in that 15 year old’s “cavity”?!!!!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Shep

    Steve I couldn't find what I was looking for in the Police Act- any pointers?

    I've just read through your posts and can't figure what exactly you were looking for, unless it was the arms act you need?

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Nice post Sara, eloquent with a touch of humour.

    And I’m a second generation Wigger/Nigger lover. Beat that.

    I remember being grossly embarrased when my Mother, back in the 60s, gave a bag of old clothes to the road sweeper, who happened to be a Sikh, the look on his face was that of someone who had just been handed a turd. She meant well but.........
    I still cringe at the thought.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Thanks Steve - yes Arms Act 1983 & 2000 had a bit there about carriage & possesion but not use (still reading but need sleep)

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Kyle, the term "spaz" originated in the early 1960s in the UK and was a derogatory corruption of the word Spastic, I know I was there. I am not overly PC in fact I have been known to be overtly rude and obnoxious, ask either of my friends, but in this forum I cringe when I here such terms used even if in ignorance, sorry.

    And around the same time 'gay' simply mean happy and carefree, and before that 'faggot' used to just be a bundle of wood. Just because words come from somewhere, doesn't mean that they mean it now. I call my dog a spaz, and it's not a replacement for 'spastic', it's because he does stupid things.

    All the same I've explained what I was meaning to make the distinction clear, and given some alternative terms to the one I used. What do you want from me? Ten Hail Marys?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    So ... Dominion Post has revealed the secret evidence. It's pretty shocking. I still agree with Jon Minto, I think. why let it grow? Why didn't the police step in and talk to Tuhoe elders or Tuhoe police reps before the nonsense intensified?

    I had no idea that Tuhoe harboured such a grievance - even though my grandfather farmed within the confiscation line not far from Taneatua.

    However, when I saw the confiscation line as a child, part of me was aware of the injustice of it. Haven't heard much about it since then and yes, it is a blatant injustice that has I guess been unresolved.

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    So ... Dominion Post has revealed the secret evidence. It's pretty shocking. I still agree with Jon Minto, I think. why let it grow? Why didn't the police step in and talk to Tuhoe elders or Tuhoe police reps before the nonsense intensified?

    Since Minto claimed that the taped evidence was 'the sort of thing you'd overhear in a gun club' he's looking pretty fucking stupid right about now, in my opinion.

    If the police warned the suspects that they were under surveillance there's the danger that they'd continue their activities but take much more elaborate precautions; I think the smart thing to do would have been to continue to accumulate evidence and then move in when the planning became concrete enough to press conspiracy charges.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Fantasist fools - It is the kind of dribble that goes on at gun clubs et al.

    Why discuss armour-piercing bullets to go through stab proof vests? - They're not bullet proof & there's a big water-melon on top.

    That Auckland dude isn't stable & anyone thinking popular rebellion is possible in NZ is deluded.

    This is piss talk with no credible threat. National Front said everyone should "Kill a Maori" in the mid '80s - tough talk amongst themselves - never happened (oh they killed a few of their own).

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    Fantasist fools - It is the kind of dribble that goes on at gun clubs et al.

    When you're talking about 'killing white people for practice', stockpiling guns and honing your ability to ambush cars then you're the sort of person the police should keep a very close eye on. That's what we PAY them to do; how terrible would it be if these idiots did start blowing up food courts and the police had to reveal that they knew all about them but just decided to ignore them because they might have been full of hot air?

    That Auckland dude isn't stable & anyone thinking popular rebellion is possible in NZ is deluded.This is piss talk with no credible threat.

    Yeah, because deluded unstable people with guns never hurt ANYONE.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Jimmy Southgate,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4272184a10.html

    Be surprised if the arms charges go ahead now.

    Wellingtown • Since Nov 2006 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Indy Media are off line?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I've set up a new thread to discuss the Dom Post stories. Y'all might want to pop over there.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    "Yeah, because deluded unstable people with guns never hurt ANYONE."

    Agreed - it's about a nutter/s who need a tap on the shoulder & any arms they may have removed. Not ninjas terrorising school kids.

    The only successful terror campaign was done by farmers releasing the calicivirus. I felt betrayed at that, if indeed it counts as terrorisim.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Cheers RB hope your feeling better.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    The most surprising thing about this, is that Tuhoe aren't the only Maori to have been royally shafted by the state, and arguably they've had a pretty good go at getting state funding, yet they seem to have some sort of belief that they've been harder done by than anyone else.

    I can think of quite a number of hapu and iwi that would gladly have received the support that the state has continued to put into that particular area.

    Must be something about all that mist, it helps with delusional thinking....

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    The most surprising thing about this, is that Tuhoe aren't the only Maori to have been royally shafted by the state, and arguably they've had a pretty good go at getting state funding, yet they seem to have some sort of belief that they've been harder done by than anyone else.

    I think it's a mistake to think that these guys represented Tuhoe. This story from The Press got a bit lost as the "state terror" narrative about the raids took over:

    Tuhoe Waikaremoana Trust manager Tama Nikora said his people had been struggling for years to have their voices heard.

    The tribe had a strong sense of cultural identity, but for the 19 per cent of members who still lived on their traditional lands there was little work and many people were beneficiaries.

    Nikora said the trust was trying to create some work in forestry, but their efforts were being thwarted by tribe radicals.

    "What they really want is work. If they were busy in employment they wouldn't be doing what they are doing," he said.

    Nikora believed there was some truth in the reports of military training and guerilla-style camps.

    He said for some Tuhoe there was no law but their law. "There's only a few actually living out there trying to hold the rest of the tribe to ransom," he said.

    "The older people are worried, they don't like what's going on. They don't think the police have over-reacted."
    He said young people out of work were easily led astray by more radical older members.

    "People need to answer the question, `do they subscribe to the treaty or not'," he said. "Because in Article Three, the right was given to the government to pass laws."

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

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