Posts by dubmugga
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coffee as indicator of kiwi culture...tooo funny and gimme a break with your wide eyed misty accounts of kiwiana bullshit with your totems of imported bees and outdoor cooking by the beach as though brits never roasted meat in the outdoors or sat around and grilled fish on a campfire at the beach... is that all you got as representative of kiwi culture ?...oh yeah language and music sung in umm what language was that again ???...errr english wasnt it ?...
me, narrow minded and bitchy?...how about you cut your apron strings to mother england, lose the union jack on the flag, accept that euro subjugation, elimination and assimilation policies have failed then let us assimilate you into polynesian culture and identify yourselves as representative of just exactly where you are in the world. thats hardly isolationist, its actually quite embracing and liberating if you think about it.
you can either come over of your own free will or as is shown by the patience of polynesians, we will in time breed it out of you and passively force you to evolve your precious culture. the other option is your culture dies out hopefully quietly and with dignity but i doubt it.
it's plain to see that some of you really have no idea whats going on do you?...:)
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The thing is - all of this is based on "ifs" and "maybes" and stuff which is, basically, liberally interpreted from oral tradition (and try checking out how many Maori oral traditions can be traced back to the Bible, for instance) or just made up, hung together with the things we genuinely don't know (e.g. how and when precisely the kumara did cross the ocean) and pretty much ignores the bulk of evidence. It's a nice piece of imaginative interpretation but as history it's useless, on a par with Gareth Menzies' giant sloths in Fiordland.
maori oral traditions are based on older polynesian ones of which no one has bothered attempting revisionist methodology on, that i know of. so cut the patronising dismissive bulllshit and cite me some actual historians, provide me with some bulk of evidence to support any theory you might hold of polynesian migrations and cultures.
interpret legend and myth with the magic jawbone if you will. tell me of panspermia, with life in a sky father like comet resembling sperm crashing into the fertile egg like planet of mother earth or of the separation of earth and sky as when the dust settles after an asteroid crash. tell me of harnessing fire from volcanoes as though visiting demons from the underworld. tell me even of wars in heaven between maui and his brothers as planetary alignments and polar shifts, when the sun stands still while the earth finds its equilibrium and the seas swirl in catastrophic proportions throwing up new lands and sinking others, or how it might appear as though the sun were snared and the days got longer. tell me of tracking stars at their zenith like mauis hook to locate lands and spirits/behaviour of animals revealing clues to lifes mysteries
dismiss the myths/traditions as though they didnt/don't hold natural truths encoded for easy transmission across generations, the secret translations of which weren't meant for everyone and wonder what happens when the story tellers die without ever having passed them on and the true meaning gets lost.
who loses out ? we all do cos we are the people of this land/planet and those are our sciences our art and our culture for which we as polynesians dont make distinctions between.
yeah go on shed a tear and have a drink for this old timer as well
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-claude-levi-strauss4-2009nov04,0,890035.story
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heh...mudbloods seems a bit harsh cos i'm a bit of a mongrel myself, but coming from polynesian royalty i'd like to think theres still a bit of magic left in us and not much in the rest.
so anyway, about this bi-cultural thing. who exactly are these cultures ? i mean if we're talking euro by way of the UK and lump the welsh, irish, scots and english together under one culture then why do we isolate maori outside of their wider polynesian cultural context ? or are we also to think of individual iwi as being distinctive peoples having their own specific culture as of the irish, scots, english and welsh ?
finally, can someone please school me up on "kiwi" culture ?cos apart from assimilating aspects of polynesian culture, like getting tattoed a lot and co opting particular values like respect and humility it doesnt seem to be that different from the brits except now we're chucking in bits of american by way of hiphop.
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The Celtic "real indigenous people" thing, which, as Joe pointed out, follows in a fine tradition of white people mucking with indigenous history to suit their own crackpot theories.
Brailsford's research is not taken seriously by any actual historians, and believe me, these include people who are quite happy to point out failings in Ngai Tahu's version of history. The question of to what extent what we know about pre-European Maori history is accurate is fascinating and has attracted a lot of scholarship, it's just unfortunate it's attracted other things.
pffft...lets not get distracted by the celtic guff
perhaps then you could cite a few actual historians and some scholarly research papers regarding waitaha and in particular the rock paintings which litter the sth island? even better would be some ngai tahu tohunga capable of reinterpreting 'their' histories with 'the magic jawbone' ?
what oral traditions did remain after waitaha were assimilated would probably have been lost to the invaders because its traditional in any conquering culture to eliminate the previous histories/ historians and replace them with your own. not only that, but the traditions would have been coded only for those who were meant to know, to the rest they were just fantastical stories easily dismissed by the great unwashed.
personally i dont find it inconcievable that early polynesians not only traded jade with the ancient chinese and meso americans but interbred with them as well. the trick would be to trace the genetic evidence thru mitochondria. only you'd have to look for it in the royal breeding lines of relatively pure polynesian females who did continue the bloodlines not the muggles we have these days. the proto-polynesian language of asian origins suggest some evidence of pre euro asian contact as does the arrival of sth american kumara to suggest more than meets the eye in that direction also. i mean, just what are we supposed to make of those persistent myths of the long ears in rapanui with the ginga top knots captured so mystically in stone?
back to the treaty though. did it only cover a cessation of hostilities between the colonists and the maori ?
so theres nothing to stop a marauding band of nth island maori coming down sth, kicking ngai tahu arse, killing their menfolk, assimilating their women, confiscating their histories and stealing the land as they did ?
actually do they even have to be maori. how about a new wave of polynesian settlers ?...:)
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Actually, no. It's attitudes like yours that attempt to timefreeze Maori at 1840. Look, we'll define ourselves, 'k thx.
doesnt seem like it. the treaty defined maori as one people and fixed your tribal borders leaving you to argue the details and you been stuck with it ever since. but with specific regards to ngai tahu. its their whakapapa and therefore claim to tangata whenua i find suspect, but whatever. they look after their own as i do. its the white way isnt it ?
and whenever i see anyone in a suit regardless of ethnicity, i think they represent corporate capitalist consumer culture.
The waitaha thing is bollocks, and that's being polite
and which specific waitaha thing would that be ? the thing that pissed brailsford off was how ngai tahu wanted to skew his findings to suit their indigenous agenda cos they were paying him but the archaeological record didnt match.
Just talk to him first, and take a photo if he is uncooperative. Maybe he doesn't have any idea about your perspective, and will be glad to find out that he's offending, so he can change his ways. Then you could make a friend rather than an enemy.
i took a photo of him out in the estuary, left a message on his windscreen, and took his license plate number but yeah i will let his tyres down if i catch him again:)
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...thanks ben, but what exactly is 'pub' short for and dont you think 'virtual' places like these are the modern pub equivlaent of the traditional haunt/hunting ground for the geeky white male and the odd jolly brownie ?
and as with a pub, if i get boisterous then i'll accept warnings and bannings, but only by the publican;)
as for stirring. nah i gather shellfish from there. it's a source of food for me and if they damage it i'm going to damage a source that impacts on their ability to source food. fools betta recognize!
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Does that give him an excuse to use asshole-flavoured gendered insults? Because it doesn't anywhere else on PAS.
so i set a precedent. doesnt mean you have to follow suit and for fucks sake i said sorry :P
good on you for having an iwi you think doesnt suck but what about the wider peoples or is it always going to be case a case of every man hapu and iwi for itself?... kinda selfish, greedy and cuntish if you ask me and also why the treaty will always work in favour of the crown unless you sell out, take your 30 pieces of silver, all the national parks and half the coastline, then start wearing a suit.
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its probable my samoan ancestors were waitaha antecedents and my irish ones arrived in the 19th century (or possibly way earlier also...heh) so i'm as much indigenous by birthright as any ngai tahu has rights to claim a rock sculpture as products of their indigenousity?
and yeah it's brailsfords original research into ngai tahu claims which showed them up for waitaha usurpers.
never mind the new age shit. if you ever sit at caste hill you do feel something infinitely older and more powerful than petty ngai tahu boardroom squabbles.
there really is something about that place
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BTW, i was driving back from dropping the kids off at the turning circle to catch the bus to school and seen some dude and his lady drive their hi lux and boat out onto the estuary at low tide to put it in the channel.
thats not cool and prompted the local iwi to block access to the estuary in the first place thus becoming a major catalyst for the whole foreshore debate
i'm gonna see about putting up a sign saying no vehicle access beyond the gate/boatramp and qualify it with "surveillance cameras are operating".
if that doesnt work then i might start tagging vehicles and slashing tyres. whaddayreckin?
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yeah FWIW i'm born and raised in otago and am 100 percent samoan, 50 percent palagi with maori kids who can claim a percentage of ngai tahu
while I might wish he'd express it with some better measure, the rest of his argument does represent questions we should be allowed to consider. Ngai Tahu is not beyond criticism.
its the written 'expression with some better measure' that got us here in the first place. if 'people' were straight up and called a spade a spade:) there'd be a lot less pussy footing round the issue.
i mean, i'd like to think theres only one way you can interpret what i say and that anyone from a high court lawyer to one of the cuzzies out the back block can understand me. now that's kinda cool, dont you think ? if only the treaty were that way too. next you'll be pulling me up on grammar, punctuation and spelling.
lik dat ish rly matterz nw...pffft