Posts by SteveH
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
But it’s a real mystery as to where the heck all those children went. Eliza couldn’t possibly have had them with her during all that, could she?
Yes, she must have been getting help from somewhere. If she had all the kids with her she would have been caring for six under the age of 10 when George Alington gave her the 20 pounds.
Edit: six, not seven. One of William and Eliza's daughters died in 1887, age 3.
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
I’ve had another email from Ngaire directing me to her genealogy page:
Ngaire, on your page you've got:
Eliza Ann Webb married (aged 33), to William John David WINTER (1848-1942) 4 May 1882 at her mother's residence, Madras Street, Christchurch
Is it William who is aged 33 at the marriage? If it's Eliza that puts her birth around 1849 which is very different from the 1864 mentioned in other events.
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
I don’t suppose any expert genealogists could rustle up a copy of Miss E A Webb’s marriage certificate to Mr Webb (which presumably would give her date of birth) and then a copy of Hilda Annie Webb’s (Eileen’s presumed birth name) birth certificate. If the date of birth for Mrs E A Winter (nee Webb) and E A Webb are the same then that would put everything to bed.
If you want to order them, the registration numbers are:
1882/35 Marriage of Eliza Ann Webb and William Winter
1892/3429 Birth of Hilda Annie WebbThose two certificates could well rule out a connection but are less likely to be convincing in terms of confirming a connection. Records that old will only have ages, which are often imprecise, so it won't be a definitive as birth dates would be. The locations of the events could be quite suggestive though.
The marriage notice in the Star, 9 May 1882:
Winter--Webb.--May 4, at Madras street, North, by the Rev C. Fraser, William Winter, to Eliza Ann, youngest daughter of Mrs Webb, both of Christchurch.
There was another Eliza Winter (no middle name given) having children around the same time (1870-1900). The father was Henry Thomas Winter. There was also a Eliza Ann Webb having children with James Webb.
I’m intrigued that apparently the Colemans changed their adopted daughter’s name so that it included her birth mother’s surname – it doesn’t seem to quite make sense.
That seems odd to me too, particularly using the married name when she'd apparently been divorced and the baby was registered as "Webb" when born. However Dianne posted that Eliza's death record stated ‘Eliza Ann Kennard commonly known as Eliza Ann Winter ’. So she was going by Winter even after her second marriage. It's possible that Alington didn't even know her maiden name.
The timeline does fit quite well:
18 Aug 1887 - Percy Edward Winter born (last of Eliza and William's children)
around Sept 1889 (or before) - William Winter abandons Eliza Ann
31 Jul 1890 - Horace Clement Wilfred Webb born (mother Eliza Ann Webb, no father recorded). Must have been conceived around Nov 1889
15 Sep 1891 - court notice re divorce
9 Dec 1891 - Hilda Annie Webb born (mother Eliza Anne Webb, no father recorded)
21 Dec 1892 - payment of 20 pounds from Alington to E. A. Winter
24 Nov 1893 - letter re adoption of 23 month old girl, mother having been paid 20 pounds
1895 - Berty Alfred Forster Webb born (mother Eliza Webb, no father recorded)
1898 - Eliza Ann Winter married Frederick Kennard -
Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
mother is listed as Eliza Anne Webb as opposed to the spelling apparently used by Eliza Ann ... apparently the BDM database is notoriously unreliable
Variations in spelling of an individual's name is quite common before the 20th century. Ann and Anne were very commonly used interchangeably. Note that it's not usually the BDM index at fault - usually the variation is present in the original documents (the handwritten regional and parish registers).
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If George’s marriage took place after the adoption of his daughter on November 24th, 1893, then when exactly was his first ‘legitimate’ child born in 1894 (her birth certificate is held by the National Library but not available online)? Did this have a precipitory effect on the timing of the marriage and adoption?
George Hildebrand Alington married Winifred Beatrice Dumergue 12 Apr 1893.
The adoption letter is dated 24 Nov 1893.
Winifred Louisa Alington was born 11 Feb 1894.
Based on these dates I wonder if it was Winifred's impending birth that triggered the adoption. -
Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to Marg Couch,
The chase of genealogy is such a buzz! Do you think there’d be much appetite for a NZ version of the WDYTYA franchise?
I don’t know if we could manage a local version but I think genealogy's appeal is broadening because it’s much more immediate now with so much online.
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to Emma Hart,
Innit? I would watch the hell out of this show.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Do_You_Think_You_Are%3F_%28British_TV_series%29
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Hard News: Autism and celebrity, in reply to Bryan Spender,
I have been impressed with critical thinking skills that my son’s generation ( born in the 2000’s ) have received. That is the best defense against bad information.
People used to trust media - if they read something in a newspaper, or saw it on the news, or read it in a book, it was likely to be true. The internet changed all of that. The vast majority of information people get now is unverified. You have to develop the ability to critically analyse it all because so much of it is contradictory. Naturally younger generations have adapted faster.
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Our olive trees have also produced fruit for the first time in years. I presume it's the weather this summer that has triggered it - anyone know specifically?
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Hard News: Spring Timing, in reply to BenWilson,
My point was anecdotal. I didn’t really want to make a big deal out of it, other than to say that comparing the behaviour of a national political organization to regional one is suspect, because people don’t think about them in the same way at all.
When I lived in Sydney my perception was that State politics were fairly important to most people, certainly more important than council politics usually are to NZers (Sydney council politics OTOH, seemed fairly irrelevant, having interest levels more like local board politics over here).