Posts by dyan campbell
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I think Dyan is right about Vipassana meditation - it's different from positive thinking - whatever that is.
Thank you, Cecilia. People are arguing with me without actually paying attention to what I've written.
This is what I wrote above:
The concept of "positive thinking" is not part of mindfulness. Your thoughts are free to be disturbing, sad, happy, crazy, vengeful, erotic, petty... just thoughts. You just let them run down until the spaces between the thoughts actually become evident.
The gist of "mindfulness" is really more letting the disturbing chatter in the mind run down and go calm, as well as being aware of aches, pains and sensations while not instinctively tensing up against them. There is no judgement made on the thoughts or their nature at all. In fact, that's kind of the point of the technique.
I keep saying I don't endorse any kind of "positive thinking" and nor do any clinicians advocating mindfulness as a technique for coping with pain or illness. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Nothing to do with positive thinking.
Jon Kabat Zinn Centre for Mindfulness has no links with Buddhism of any kind, and his work is through the U of Mass Med School. The techniques used at that institutiion (which exists to help patients with chronic pain) are identical but there is no religious, iconic or spiritual dimension to the programme whatsoever. They are simply techniques for calming an agitated mind to help reduce the unpleasant experiences and effects of illness.
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Dyan, the study you quote is an uncontrolled one of 14 people, which found a beneficial change of 0.5%. I don't find that convincing,
The study didn't show a 0.5% beneficial change - but I didn't explain the figures so I can see why you would interpret them that way.
The study showed a reduction of 0.5% in A1C or glycosylated haemoglobin.
A1C measures the level of "haemaglobin with sugar sticking to it". Any reduction of this number measuring A1C is beneficial to someone with diabetes.
The result of the 0.5 reduction of A1C resulted in a reduced mean arterial pressure (MAP) of 6 mmHg.
This represents six millimetres of mercury (Hg) which is a significant - not huge - but significant change in mean arterial pressure.
It is significantly more than a 0.5% beneficial change overall.
Of course does not mean "cure" but a reduction in this number without any change in diet, weight, medication or activity is remarkable. It is extraordinary that people can affect their blood chemistry, metabolism and blood pressure with only their minds. It's especially remarkable as these people only followed this protocol for a few weeks.
I'm by no means advocating giving up medication or avoiding medication altogether, nor is anyone who works in this field.
and I think advocating meditation and positive thinking for those with serious illness borders on being insulting. .
While it is understandable how some might find any suggestion of these techniques insulting, there are others who welcome any information that can allow them to have some control over the way they feel - physically and psychologically.
The concept of "positive thinking" is not part of mindfulness. Your thoughts are free to be disturbing, sad, happy, crazy, vengeful, erotic, petty... just thoughts. You just let them run down until the spaces between the thoughts actually become evident.
The gist of "mindfulness" is really more letting the disturbing chatter in the mind run down and go calm, as well as being aware of aches, pains and sensations while not instinctively tensing up against them. There is no judgement made on the thoughts or their nature at all. In fact, that's kind of the point of the technique.
I think the inference of "positive thinking" is from the subjects' reported experience of "thinking more positive thoughts" but not through force of will, but because the disturbing obsessive thoughts just kind of wind down and lose some of their disturbing buzzy quality.
Learning how to reduce our experience of stress, fear and pain and learning relaxation techniques can be useful in any circumstance
But those of us who consider these techniques valuable should hear those of you who resent too enthusiastic an endorsement. I am as guilty of this "rah-rah try this" as Peter Ashby ever was, and neither of us mean to be as annoying as we come across. We just mean "there it is - take it if it helps - chuck it aside if it's useless".
I am also reminded of tending sick animals when I was a kid and being dragged away by parents who insisted that the dog/cat/rodent/bird/reptile really needed undisturbed sleep more than a helpfully hovering presence. There is a parallel here somewhere...
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the mind is considered empty and thoughts merely phenomena that occur within the mind.
I don't think that's cognitive behaviour therapy
It isn't? Whoops, my apologies - my unpreparedness is showing - I y just assumed that from hearing (2nd hand from someone who had that kind of therapy) who said getting the notion that our thoughts don't define us and made the leap that was a) part of his therapy and b) evidence that they (cognitive behaviourists) believe the nature of mind to be empty and a different thing from thoughts, which are phenomena that occur within the confines of that empty mind. The control of mind comes not from controlling thoughts, but by allowing them to percolate until they eventually become much, much slower and more focussed, once all the chatter ceases. But that might just be the Buddhists...
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And so if other people think they feel pain, without visible cause, and they're in charge of their thoughts, they can jolly well change their thoughts, and if they can change their thoughts, they must be choosing to be in pain.
The first premise is probably wrong, and the conclusion, and yet I think mostly we operate as though all those items were true.That's not quite what is meant by pain all being in the brain. Or nocioceptors to be precise - (the high-threshold primary sensory neurons that detect noxious stimuli). Pain results from the processing of neural signals at different levels of the central nervous system.
Whether it's phantom limb pain, chronic pain in the absence of actual injury or infection, or pain from having a hand cut - it is all extremely real and exactly the same from the pain sufferer's point of view.
The very real nature of pain is agreed upon, not doubted. Despite an apparent source of the pain not being there (as in phantom limb pain) there is no one who thinks the pain is "not there" or is any way less real than in someone who actually has a present limb with a terrible wound. The existence of pain is the constant, the physical source is the variable.
You can't exactly control the pain with thoughts as such - mindfulness is, if anything, the absence of thoughts. In Buddhism (and in cognitive therapy actually) the mind is considered empty and thoughts merely phenomena that occur within the mind.
The process of mindfulness as explored by Jon Kabat Zinn is part of what has prompted study into the actual nature of pain.
I had a cat with "phantom pain" but the poor animal certanly experienced it in a very real way. Before she was my cat, she'd been attacked by a dog and had required hours of surgery and more than 100 stitches in her tiny kitten back. By the time I got her she was just fine, not a visible scar, but her previous owner (who had to go overseas if you're wondering why I got her cat) said that brushing fur along her back was out of the question, she would shriek with agony and jump straight in the air. Sides, head, paws, tail - brush away and she was fine - along the spine where the scar tissue was and the poor animal had the same reaction I do when my scars are touched. It's real pain alright, but the message our brains get is not an accurate assessment of the state of the body part it's describing.
Similarly, if you cut open your hand and it hurts, the pain is every bit as much "in your mind" as someone with phantom limb pain or fibromyalgia. It's just that in the case of physical wounds, the message sent - pain - is an accurate assessment of the body part in question.
The experience of pain is very, very real as many sad lab animals would attest, if they could speak.
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I don't think salivating at the thought of food is analogous to repairing damaged mitochondrial DNA by thinking about it. Can diabetics make more insulin by thinking about it? No, because their pancreatic tissue is too damaged.
Actually, funny you should mention that.... and of course it does depend on the kind of diabetes you mean - whether type 1 diabetes; type 2 diabetes; gestational diabetes or diabetes insidious (nephrological diabetes).
In the case of type 2 (which accounts for more than 95% of all diabetes, then indeed you can alter the insulin receptivity, if not the production of insulin.
With type 2 diabetes you have enough insulin, but your body is unable to use it.
There has been only one study to date looking at the effects of MBSR in patients with type 2 diabetes. A small, prospective, observational pilot study of 14 patients conducted by Rosenzweig et al.33 looked at the effects of MBSR on measures of A1C, blood pressure, body weight, and psychological symptoms, including anxiety, depression, somatization, and general psychological distress. This uncontrolled study found a reduction in A1C of 0.5% and reduced mean arterial pressure of 6 mmHg; decreases in depression, anxiety, and general psychological distress in patients completing the program were also observed. Analysis suggested that lifestyle changes did not account for the reduction in A1C. Mean body weight did not change for participants, and there were no reported changes in medication, diet, or exercise that could account for the improved glycemic control.
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Since energy is metabolised in every cell in the body, I think we have to look either at that process itself* or at some immune problem, either of persistent infection or of disregulated immune response. Or both or all of these things.
I worry that if we stop researching all the options we might miss something important. More research is so badly needed.I'm hardly an expert in this area, only a fascinated observer. But as far as I can tell, the neurobiological and the mitochondrial are far from mutually exclusive. Just look at the function between visualising biting into a slice of lemon, and the process of the production of saliva. An incredibly fast, mind-body link - a physical manifestation of a psychological stimuli.
While I am equally interested in the cell function and immune response (actually more interested, as I am a frustrated, un-finished molecular biologist who wound up with only part of a degree only playing on the fringes of medicine) I am also entranced by the neurobiology of us all. We are really just a big bowl of neurotransmitters and jelly in any instance - pain, fatigue, love, birth, death.
I am such a romantic.
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The neurobiology of the disorder is becoming apparent - and through this understanding of how CFS can result from either head trauma or stroke (any kind of brain injury) they are starting to understand how they might better treat all forms of CFS.</quote?
<quote>Dyan, do you have some references for that
This is a reference for that - though as I say, no one really thinks this is completely explained, it's just an avenue of investigation.
Chronic Fatigue and the Autonomic Nervous SystemI know the HPA-axis has been implicated by various researchers at various times, but HPA tests come out perfectly normal for many of us.
Yes, but in some cases (not necessarily all) the HPA axis might recover, and hormone levels to better than normal (normal is not necessarily ideal, BTW) but the experience in your brain - that governs the ANS and consequently all your physical experiences - may be stuck on a setting that perceives a stimulus (exhaustion) and responds (fatigue).
Stress does not necessarily affect a person when they experience it. My step-Mum Jeanne had an almost epic experience of stress: at age 9 she was taken out of an extremely sheltered an comfortable upper middle class life and interned in a POW camp for those a Japanese ancestry in her native Canada - lived in stables for several months, no school, sick elderly relatives and the whole bit.Separated from siblings as sent to further camps, where they lived in uncomfortable, humiliating squalor for several years, as the older members of her family died. At 13 when WW2 ends and parents are killed (hit by a train in their truck) within weeks of their release. Jeanne manages to survive (becoming a waitress at 13 and not going back to school until 15) and becomes an ER nurse, marries, adopts a child after being unable to conceive. Her husband was diagnosed with testicular cancer.... rabidly anti Japanese in-laws come to nurse him with her till his death, cursing her as the cause. Adopted son, now 6, doesn't adjust well. Her late husband's in laws continue to berate her enough for her to move to a completely different part of the country. All this by the time she was 26 and she was so much better than fine. She would just dust herself off and work hard. She excelled.
Age 49 and wealthy, happily married, athletic, healthy, settled - she had a mental and physical breakdown her doctors attributed to stress she refused to experience a generation earlier. As her GP said, she was subconsciously waiting for a time to process the stress.
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I'm not doubting that brain traumas can cause serious fatigue, but I can't believe that most cases of CFS can be traced to such a source
Sorry, Lilith, I don't mean to assert that is the case either, just that the neurobiology behind the type of CF induced by stroke or head trauma is making interesting pointers on the road to understanding how to treat CF - and I certainly recognise its frequent post-viral or post anything onset. Many different events - from adolescence and menopause to chickenpox or kidnapping - can precipitate CF. But I believe the neurobiologists who are trying to link all the types of CF to the same set of "experiences" in the brain. You might have an ache in your arm from banging it on a doorway, or from cancer. The origins of that pan could not be more different, but our brain will feel that pain in essentially the same way, i.e. in that part of the brain, pain wise. It's not impossible fatigue follows the same model.
What I'm trying to talk about is research that is trying to map the "model" of pain (and perhaps eventually fatigue) in the brain.
You can feel huge pain, even if something heals, you can be left with pain that no longer matches anything sensible your body is saying. Where I got hit by the car and bones were exposed I have horribly sensitive scar tissue - it's like a fresh scald or a pretty recent road burn.
The pain I feel is literally in my head, seared in pathways that are not longer correct in the message they give me about the state of my ankle bone, knee and elbow. Which are all perfectly healed by now. But the pain is real to me, and literally real in the sense that my brain "senses" it. It's mini-phantom limb pain.
Fatigue can't be mapped in exactly the same way, not nearly. It is far more complex than pain, which is actually pretty straightforward. Comparatively speaking. But there are some hints that fatigue can be left jammed "on" like pain can. I'm not saying there is proof, only that some follow up of these suggestions - like some of the work being done on the body mind connection.
And, sorry to go on, but I know of one young boy who "failed to thrive" and his parents thought he just wasn't very strong, and made allowances for that. In his teens he had a heart attack
You're not going on at all! You're engaging in a robust discussion that has me thoroughly engaged. I like this a lot. Please, let us continue to discuss, disagree, correct and revise! That's what this place is for.
I don't mean to assert these things as a done deal, researched and settled. But there have been many improbable advances in the understanding and treatment of pain (no smoke, but sometimes mirrors Mirror Therapy.
The principle of pain (or fatigue) being in your head, and completely, entirely real are not out of the question.
Do realise I certainly don't mean to assert that any of the ideas or areas of research I mention are the definitive answer. Just "that's interesting' and "I hope this might be useful".
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Most surprising thing in this thread so far:
{Me)
I now spend literally 40 minutes a day cleaning my teeth
Heh, well I know it's ridiculous to you but just consider how ridiculous it is to me, I grew up compelled to spending a good chunk of my life to dental health as it was... there were endless fluoride trays, x-rays, hygienists and dental accessories were considered a Christmas stocking stuffer. So imagine my surprise that all of that still results in the onset of gum disease.
At that point I was transformed from dentally conscientious to dentally completely obsessed this dastardly little pathogen isn't going to get the better of me, oh no... and feel free to laugh. Forgive me if I don't respond... I'll just be flossing, inter-dentally brushing, brushing, gum line brushing and brushing my teeth. And rinsing with a $120.00 mouthwash. Obsessed? Me? Nonsense!Plus there's my whole 'wanting to shoot heroin in my eyeball' response, which is practically Pavlovian, at this point.
That's just human. That's why my Westie friends used to dream up drinking games to accompany those don't drink or you'll be a dick or dead or both ads. That's why when I worked in public health education I was looking at the sorts of things the Maori Party do now around public health initiatives. Choices around how we live reflect Identity, not consumer choice. Those levers are hard to access, let alone affect.
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Neurobiology of Chronic Pain (relevant to those who experience chronic fatigue too).
Islander! Greetings - I forgot to reply before about periodontal health and the effect on general health. I wrote an article about this subject for the popular press a few years ago (Fitness Life) but it is a fascinating and enormously relevant area. Low level gingival infection (present in almost all adults, unless they are undergoing regular, ongoing hygiene treatment) has an insidious effect on general health Periodontal Disease and Diabetes
It's associated with everything from miscarriage to atherosclerosis. From respiratory disease to MS, rheumatoid arthritis or gout. To an an astonishing number of things, really.
I was lucky enough to be born into a family of dental obsessives. We were given dental mirrors, floss, toothbrushes and disclosure tablets in Christmas stockings, which is pretty extreme, looking back on it.
But despite very shiny teeth, the ability to chew icecubes to snow, never having missed flossing my teeth since I was about 5, as well as extremely regular dental attention, by my 40s I was having periodontal treatment for the onset of gum disease. Great teeth do not necessarily mean great gums.
Actually just about everyone has gum disease by 15 or 16 years old, and by their 40s it begins to take its toll on your general state of health.
I now spend literally 40 minutes a day cleaning my teeth and I am beginning to worry even if it extends my life or improves my quality of life I'm going to want that time back on my deathbed.