Posts by Simon Grigg
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Alastair,
My point was that I would rather have seen Libby convicted of the crimes that matter, as I would rather see scum like Cheney go down for his crimes rather than via a circuitous route. But I'm happy to see them go down for either and one would hope that the US system would not fail here, but it has.All of the crimes and the litany of wrongs you attribute to Libby I do not question but he was not convicted of those things in any court of law. If we believe in the rule of law, we can mumble and moan about that but we have to accept it.
He was, however, convicted, by a jury after being prosecuted by a Bush appointee, having listened to voluminous evidence (not the slanted third party hearsay that James relies on}. He was then sentenced for this crime by a Bush appointed Judge.
If Americans are required to accept that Libby could not be convicted for his alleged actual crimes (ie in law he's innocent), then they also have to accept that he was properly convicted and sentenced for his other crimes. However the President doesn't see it this way...which is not surprising..his blatant and arrogant disregard for the rule of law, both domestic and international, is a hallmark of his tenure. As James says, in 2009 there will be a change of hand at the helm, but the damage done to the values and the pillars that the US is built on, will take a hell of a lot longer to resolve.
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Glad to be galling you. Nasty job, someone has to do it.
The US holds itself out to be special and should be judged as such. But to endlessly excoriate the US while ignoring much worse travesties of numerous other countries is selective, inconsistent and hyprocritical. Sorry, it just is.So I guess we ignore those 15,000 odd Iraqis currently held, many for years, without charge, many of whom simply haven't been heard from for years.
The thing is James, we do hold the US to higher standards than those other countries, and yet even when placed next to them it fails....Cuba's human rights record is not good, but in the post Bush era the USA's is far worse, with far more prisoners dying in its custody or disappearing without trace. It tortures or passes prisoners to other nations so that they can torture, It invades other nations and hundreds of thousands die as a result, with millions displaced. To say Castro is worse, and then hide behind it, in face of all this is vile nonsense.
And we didn't discuss Abu Ghraib...you refused to answer my questions about it.
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You go James, we Bush Glove Puppets are on a roll.
And I absolutely agree with you, Bush really sucks big time..and Congress too, on both sides. That's actually what quite a few of us having been saying for quite some time.
Did you apply the same burden of proof to Plame, and Libby's innocence as you did to your assertion a while back that not much happened at Abu Ghraib? Just wondering....
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Alastair, most of which I agree with, but most of which is now largely irrelevant to the matter at hand, no matter how hot under the collar it makes you, and, indeed me.
You completely missed the point I'd made (some two hours after David's original post, and weeks into a multitude of online discussions about this..hardly minutes), which was that Plame has largely been lost in this story. If you'd read what I actually said, I was largely agreeing with you, but you leapt in snarling and then made a puerile insulting statement back at me. It was unnecessary (and no, not sarcastic either..that implies an understanding of my quip which you missed in your rush to judge) to say it and to follow it with "Robust debate is I believe the purpose of this forum." is simply digging yourself a deeper hole. Robust debate?...shall I be allowed to call you a fucking idiot if I feel the urge? No of course not (and I'm not BTW), your logic is utterly flawed.
And to clarify, nobody appealed to anybody, moderators or otherwise..we're not in scout camp, we are, I hope grown up enough to discuss without resort to such.I have to be honest though, its the first time I've been called a Bush Sock Puppet, and I shall wear it with bemused satisfaction as if to prove I am now a complete all rounder.
I'm done with this.
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And since I'm making wild predictions/speculations: Clinton/Obama in 2008 for Prez/Vice-Prez.
nah, it expands the bigotry base too much. The Democrats want the White House too much to risk it all that much in a country where 52% still buy creation
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Alastair...that's it? Your first wood and trees statement was both puerile and insulting and falls below the standards that I think this forum aspires too. Your subsequent posts simply indicate that you've made a statement you can't back.
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I'm of two minds over this. I'm no friend of the Bush administration at all but I agree with the earlier statement that the use of perjury in the US system to pursue alleged perpetrators of associated crimes when no route to a conviction can be found in other ways, smells badly. It was the way McCarthy found to destroy so many careers and lives, and I don't feel comfortable with the way it was used either here or in the post Watergate chaos.
That said, it is US law and the Bush's complete disregard for that and the processes in the pursuit of that (and international) law on almost every level is a horrifying trademark of his regime to date. This is merely indicative of an ongoing pattern.
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wood meet trees, you miss the point....Libby was not convicted of the Plame act..any other fact is now irrelevant
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Does anyone know one of the 27% who still support him and is willing to admit it openly?
where's James B when you need him
Does anyone remember Bush saying he would hold an investigation into who leaked Plame's name and then take action? Is a clip of this going to be shown on the news tonight as lead? It bloody well should.
Yes but that was long ago brushed under the carpet and Libby was not convicted of that
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And how many has he had executed?
that lovely old Orange Juice song "The Day We Went Down To Texas" just came to mind.
Oh and Saddam.......