Posts by BenWilson
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
Just because an MP happens to be a Pacific Islander, doesn't make him a representative of Pacific Islanders
Sure. But they've got a lot more chance than non-PIs.
I don't think your analysis of what it takes to be a representative makes sense. It's not only what the party says that is important. What the people in it say matters, as does who they are, what they have done, etc. Otherwise they might as well not even tell anyone who they are, just issue some doco on their plans and leave it at that. Clearly, it doesn't work that way.
I know it doesn't fit your narrative to suggest that National and Labour don't solely represent one specific demographic, but that's just how it is. They are voted for by all stripes so they have try to represent them as well. It was easier before MMP for them to represent only the hegemony, but since then they face the problem that failing to give some internal representation to diverse groups means that those groups can splinter off and form viable parties. So they get people from every substantial minority. Which is and will continue to be a good effect of MMP.
Now that doesn't mean those groups now have massive power. They are still minorities. Even with perfect representation their wishes can be ignored. No system can change that.
Furthermore, being part of a group that has been excluded from power does not mean that you must form a new party to get power for that group. Women form half of the population, but there is no Women's Party that has got any seats, even though they have a potential demographic bigger than any other party. This is because women have managed, by working within the major party system, to increase their influence. To say this can't happen is flying in the face of the fact that most of the time under MMP the most powerful person in the country was a woman.
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
Same processes apply. I am sure the United Nations are making decisions every day. Not only that, their guiding principles (human rights) have some moral worth, whereas those of nations generally represent the interests of their dominant groups.
You are aware of the UN Security Council, right? The UN isn't really a good model for a working democratic system. Unless you think that our government should have 5 powerful members who can veto anything Parliament comes up with, for all time, and that General Assembly representation should be equal between countries with populations less than 100,000 and countries with over a billion people. So some people should get ten thousand times as many votes as other people when selecting representatives.
It's a place where people talk, not a Parliament. Things the UN decides do not become the law of anywhere. Their idea of decisive action is to write sternly worded letters to heads of nations.
I don't think I'll continue the debate about children. It's too massive and not really on topic for this thread.
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It could make an interesting story if Slater libels the main subject in the Truth, gangs, and forgets to attribute the story to their longest running source, unnamed vice-girls who were formally P-slaves. The outcome could even make the MSM.
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
To me, diversity isn't a smattering of basically centrist parties-
Nor me. I'm referring to the way that under MMP we got our first female PMs, tripled the number of Maori representatives, tripled the Pacific Islanders, got our first Chinese reps (on the list, couldn't happen in FPP), and even got a transsexual MP, and a Rastafarian. A lot of this was in the two big parties. These were good things.
The UN is an interesting model, but it's not a nation, and doesn't face the problems that nations face. Parliament has to actually decide things, and then act on them. A Parliamentary system can be judged somewhat on it's ability to do both of these things (there are other criteria, obviously).
Is this desirable? Why? How might this be facilitated, under our current MMP system.
To me it's virtually insoluble. We have to trust that adults speak for children. It might be a very interesting thing to collect data on, though, what the opinions of children are on a number of political issues.
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If I was a vice girl I'd be getting worried about loose lips Slater running my main advertising source. Is this for real?
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
Maybe that is the difference in our perspectives Ben, although we both share the view re the PVT.
What are you referring to, when you say "that" in this sentence? I'm still not sure we differ on anything to do with policy at all. I think dropping the PVT would be good. Completely removing it would be better. But I don't think the outcome will be a huge minor party revolution. It will just be further broadening of representation. I'm not even convinced that wouldn't come at a cost - from what I see, becoming more democratic has made the country change slower. On social policy, this isn't so bad, so long as each step is progressive. Mostly, it has been, and indeed those steps have been mostly bi-partisan in effect, even if there was heated debate at the time. On economic policy, I'd generally say a slow moving system is good, except in times of crisis. Unfortunately, we're in one of those times. However, I still think, just on the angle of the right to be represented, that the PVT should go. Solving the economic madness of now is something that the whole population has to come to terms with.
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
Are you sure you are not a Labour man, Ben?
Pretty damn. I've always been a swing voter.
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
If the threshold was 2%, that is where all votes were closer to being equal, then our democracy would truly start to evolve, on steroids!
I think we should lower the threshold, but I don't think the results will be instant or massive. Switching to MMP in the first place was a far, far more massive shift - I already did the maths for you on how much that increased representation outside of National/Labour. That shift will absolutely dwarf anything that might come from dropping the threshold, even all the way to zero. There aren't 30% more people out there champing at the bit to install parties that currently get nothing. I'd be amazed if even a threshold of zero would increase the non-National/Labour vote more than 10%. Between them, they got over 75% of the votes cast, and there's no way under PR you can slice and dice that to stop those two parties totally dominating the political scene.
The massive shift to MMP didn't cause a giant upsetting in the power structures - it just forced in more diversity, more representation of minority interests. That could and should be furthered, but I'm not expecting everything to be peaches after that. I actually disagree with most minority interests, for starters. They're highly likely to just choose a side and play the same old game, indeed much more likely than a substantial minor party like the Greens or NZF. In that game they will get their key concessions, but absolutely will not get their whole manifesto. So radical change is not really likely, just stepwise change.
It's ironic, to me, that democracy is such a conservative system.
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
I would probably be of the same view as you Ben, if I were a labour or nat supporter. But I'm not, like many people.
Nor am I.
They are still wedded to their own traditions and ideologies, be they left or right.
Sure, but they're also more diverse in their demography, too. Turns out that a really diverse demography supports that narrow range of views. We've got the democracy that we deserved, sadly. It doesn't matter what happens with the political system, if the population is conservative, then you'll get conservative politics. Since the 1980s, NZ has had a neoliberals of various flavours. It's something that the people, in sufficient numbers, still think is a good idea. Indeed, for a substantial minority, it is a good idea. So long as enough people beyond that think their position might change, or are scared of the alternatives, then this status quo can continue.
I cannot agree with your notion of MMP 'evolving'. It makes it out to be a process of trying to get equality of vote, like all manner of equality, a 'natural' one, rather than one fought for, and hindered, by human agency.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. The way that our politicians approach gaining power has changed, and is likely to continue to change. This is what I mean by evolving. Things could evolve to be worse, and then better again. I'll be surprised if National can possibly remain so popular, whilst making no improvements whatsoever in practically any measure of governance. It's quite mystifying, really - I think it's people huddling towards power in scary times, something that's been human nature forever. Also, the turning away from engagement by disaffected voters might reverse.
Predicting the future is a very difficult thing. As the old saw goes, change is the only certain thing.
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Legal Beagle: MMP Review #1: The Party…, in reply to Steven Peters,
A genuine increase in the diversity of representation in parliament of the nz electorate , one would have thought, would mean a decreasing dominance of the two main parties in parliament
Not necessarily. The dominant parties could increase internal diversity to broaden their reach. Which they did. This was a win for the system, and the country, which doesn't really need to have political conflict over the kind of difference that excluded people from power before.
It's never been a stipulation in a democratic system that there can't be large power blocs, often outright majorities. If that's what the people want, then it's democratic that they get it.
This is what happens in a real, evolving political system. I expect MMP will continue to evolve.
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