Posts by nzlemming
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An exchange tonight on the Book of Faces in one of Matthew Poole's threads
Him (who regularly comments on Matthew's posts, usually to take the opposite and, coincidentally I'm sure, vaguely National POV - Matthew will correct me if I'm misrepresenting this chap)
I have been in both camps but I've decided I'm voting for a change. I'm not a big fan of the design but I think is time we grew up as a country and maybe this is the catalyst that starts that process.
Me
What's grown up about voting for something you don't want? It won't start anything. The time to change the flag is *after* you change the thinking, not before. It's not a magic cloth that will change people's attitudes overnight, or even start a process. It will send no message except that there are no consequences to a government gerrymandering due process. I despair about comments like yours.
Him
Read the comments on the flag issue, race issues, global issues. New Zealanders are becoming less and less connected to the real world. If you don't see flaws in how we interact as a people then I despair for you. We are immature and frankly pathetic as a nation. I've changed my thinking but the majority haven't and never well. That is why the Western society is doomed. I have spent hours thinking about the pros and cons of changing. I haven't jumped on the emotional bullshit arguments. I haven't made it a political issue. Despair those that have decided on a fabricated, fucked up view of the world.
Please explain how do we know when the thinking is changed?. In general kiwis are shallow, racist and completely closed to being inclusive.
To make this political issue is childish and frankly pathetic.Me
I'm not arguing with that, though I'm a little more charitable than you in assessing the situation. What I don't get is how you think voting for a crappy excuse for a flag that you admit you don't even like is going to change all that? It *is* a political issue because John Key has made it a political issue from the start. That doesn't mean it has to be a partisan issue, which is what Key means when he says "political", but it sure as hell is a political issue. Just because you can't discuss it without getting emotional doesn't mean the rest of us can't.
Him
I'm not emotional. I have thought long and hard about my decision. I haven't bought into the bullshit arguments on both sides. This is about changing the crap direction this country is heading in. I'm sick of the petty political point scoring, the Maori vs the rest, the rich vs the poor arguments. People are directed by a media agenda which is actually dividing this country further. The fact we can't have a mature discussion about a range of issues show we can't exist as a civilised society.
Me
Yes, you've said repeatedly that you don't buy into "the bullshit arguments on both sides", but you haven't said what arguments you do buy into that would lead you to change the flag to a tea towel. And you seriously haven't explained how this will magically change society, or even lead to a mature conversation about it. I thought we were having one, here - I mean, no-one's called you or me an idiot, yet.
Him
I'm sure when Canada was looking to change tea towel comments were bandied around then. Can you name the PM or tell me what the arguments were for or against the change to the maple leaf? Probably not.
After plenty of thinking and discussion I think this is an opportunity to change the global perception of what/who Nee Zealand is.
I was drinking with 10 people tonight from various backgrounds. All have decided they are voting for the new flag.
Imagine seeing a leg of lamb in Europe with the new flag on it. Imagine our wine with the fern across the back of the bottle, as a sign of where it is produced. We have an opportunity to improve the returns to the country through a massive marketing opportunity.
I appreciate that you may not agree with me. That's your call. Do I think the flag will change? No. Do I now think we are missing a massive opportunity? Yes.
I have taken the emotion out of my decision. It is just a shame we aren't mature enough as a country to have an honest discussion about this without name calling and immature bullshit.Me
Oh, you're talking about "rebranding" New Zealand, not changing it. I see. I don't think you have taken your emotion out of it. Emotionally, you happen to agree with John Key.
SMFH
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Hard News: So what now?, in reply to Marc C,
Well, cutting all the interjections out of a meeting lasting well over six hours and putting them in a 5 minute video, showing this in condensed and also edited, lopsidedly commented form, that is of course representative of the whole meeting, I suppose?
You were the one who said there was no shouting, especially at the young people, when there quite obviously was. Consequently, the rest of your observations and conclusions must be taken in the light of a lack of objective observation on your part.
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I posted this in Russell's flag thread :
I just received my ballot paper. In the information leaflet (English, only, unlike the "How to vote" leaflet, although you can download other language versions from their website) I find:
Silver Fern Flag
Designer: Kyle Lockwood
The designer considers the silver fern a New Zealand icon which has been proudly worn by generations for over 160 years. The designer's intent is that the multiple points of the fern leaf represent Aotearoa's peaceful, multicultural society, a single fern spreading upwards representing one people growing onward into the future.
The bright blue represents our clear skies and the Pacific Ocean, and the Southern Cross guided early settlers to our islands and represents our location in the South Pacific.Current New Zealand Flag
Designer: Admiral Sir Albert Hastings Markham, KCB
The royal blue background has come to represent the blue sea and sky surrounding us. The stars represent the Southern Cross constellation which can only be seen in the Southern Hemisphere, emphasising New Zealand's location in the South Pacific Ocean. The Union Jack in the top left-hand corner recognises New Zealand's historical foundations as a former British colony and dominion. This flag was officially adopted in 1902.One of these things is not like the other, to me. Am I alone in reading loaded language here?
Also, according to Te Ara, the first use of the fern as a symbol of New Zealand was when it was "first worn by players in the 1888 New Zealand Natives rugby team which toured Britain." It's a long time since School C. maths, but that's not 160 years by any measure except dog (where it's a lot more).
Also:
This flag was officially adopted in 1902.
This carefully misses the fact that it was designed and submitted to Governor George Bowen, and accepted by him in 1869, though based on the British naval Blue Ensign.
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Hard News: The flagging referendum, in reply to Ian Dalziel,
Hell, no - that's chalk and cheese
- New flag = uplifting positive
old flag = tired and drab
- it may as well be NLP (neuro linguistic programming)!NLP describes it perfectly - "what colour do you want your bowl, representing the sky, to be?"
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Hard News: The flagging referendum, in reply to nzlemming,
This flag was officially adopted in 1902.
This carefully misses the fact that it was designed and submitted to Governor George Bowen, and accepted by him in 1869, though based on the British naval Blue Ensign.
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Hmmm. I just received my ballot paper. In the information leaflet (English, only, unlike the "How to vote" leaflet, although you can download other language versions from their website) I find:
Silver Fern Flag
Designer: Kyle Lockwood
The designer considers the silver fern a New Zealand icon which has been proudly worn by generations for over 160 years. The designer's intent is that the multiple points of the fern leaf represent Aotearoa's peaceful, multicultural society, a single fern spreading upwards representing one people growing onward into the future.
The bright blue represents our clear skies and the Pacific Ocean, and the Southern Cross guided early settlers to our islands and represents our location in the South Pacific.Current New Zealand Flag
Designer: Admiral Sir Albert Hastings Markham, KCB
The royal blue background has come to represent the blue sea and sky surrounding us. The stars represent the Southern Cross constellation which can only be seen in the Southern Hemisphere, emphasising New Zealand's location in the South Pacific Ocean. The Union Jack in the top left-hand corner recognises New Zealand's historical foundations as a former British colony and dominion. This flag was officially adopted in 1902.One of these things is not like the other, to me. Am I alone in reading loaded language here?
Also, according to Te Ara, the first use of the fern as a symbol of New Zealand was when it was "first worn by players in the 1888 New Zealand Natives rugby team which toured Britain." It's a long time since School C. maths, but that's not 160 years by any measure except dog (where it's a lot more).
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Hard News: So what now?, in reply to Sacha,
Le Spinoff has a piece including actual video of the meeting - judge the crowd for yourself.
Fuck me! That appears to be the Council's own webcast feed. And those mics are designed to be super sensitive to the person right in front of it while trying to minimise extraneous noise. Definitely yelling and shouting went on, and a lot of it. The only people "discrediting" themselves are the people who continue to say it didn't happen.
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Hard News: UNGASS and the "Drug Free…, in reply to Russell Brown,
Indeed. Perhaps the cracks are really starting to show. Australia's change of heart might be another nudge. After all, CER demands we retain parity... ;-)
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Hard News: So what now?, in reply to Julie Fairey,
Would replacing Governing Body with Commissioners only apply to the Unitary Plan process? And what about Local Boards, do they get replaced too? It is a shared governance model after all.
No. It's all or nothing, as I understand it. The UP is already being handled by an independent entity. If the council is replaced by commissioners, I deeply suspect (if ECan is anything to go by) local boards would be instructed to do what they're told. "Shared governance" means that local boards are part of the Governing Body.
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Hard News: So what now?, in reply to Craig Ranapia,
The Herald has been running a typical disinformation campaign against the Unitary Plan for reasons I can’t figure out.
Because Bernard Orsman hates Len Brown. It really is that simple.