Posts by BenWilson
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Islander,
FRANKLY YES- if you are talking about people doing the best they can in a job*.
I'm not sure that we're not talking at crossed purposes here. I'm still undecided about what's the best way to organize a bunch of people who are all giving their best, if the best from some is clearly way better than the best from others. I generally incline to thinking they should be well rewarded in both cases. A person can't help their disability, or their youth, or their lack of training. On the other hand, the absolute value of the more talented person is clearly greater in simple cases. They make more product. They solve harder problems. They serve more customers. They save more lives.
It's a tricky problem.
But I do know how I feel about the relative right to good reward between the person who gives their best and the person who gives the bare minimum, when their talents are relatively equal.
That said, I'm not convinced tipping serves either purpose. But I certainly don't see it as axiomatic that it doesn't. I'm certainly not against it just because I got bad service in America when I was too miserly to tip. And I have my eyes wide open to the sloppiness that egalitarianism can encourage, because I have been guilty of riding it myself, and see it all the time in various service industries.
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Susan Snowdon,
Three cheers for you, Susan. Very heartening.
I'm not sure whether to be happy or bummed by the story. It's nice to hear about people who like their work, not so nice to hear that verbal praise is all the reward they get for giving good service. I guess it's literally the least the customer could do.
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Islander,
No-one has ever *given* me money Ben : the prizes some of my books have *earned* is a matter of fate.
Can't see the distinction, sorry. You worked, you earned. People paid. Same difference. Do you really think that what you did was really no more or less valuable than any old hack?
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Carol Stewart,
But Ben, surely shops that have good service will be rewarded by having loyal customers and doing well? Isn't that just good business practice?
The shop might be. The person working in it? Well, sometimes I'd like to make sure, on the rare occasion that someone makes an effort. NZers curiously seem to think I've got it backwards, that rewarding their effort is somehow disempowering, as if working in the shop was something they'd do for fun, or going well above the others efforts is something that should be expected of everyone. Neither of those things is true, so I don't get it. That attitude drives businesses like The Warehouse.
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Danielle,
And I agree with Danielle - I don't think NZ service is all that terrible either.
In restaurants, no, it seems OK. The concept is pretty basic, and we've learned to expect nothing more than what we usually get. In shops, though, it's often hopeless, and that's especially annoying since there can often be a lot more at stake.
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I hate that overly smarmy service you get in American restaurants
You could be overtipping. 20% sounds like quite a lot. If you really don't care for what you call smarm, then just cut it back. You'll soon find the "kiwi level".
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Islander,
Something' s a bit weird- co0mments arnt posted - but then turn up twice...
If a comment isn't posted, try clicking reload on your browser, you'll probably find it has been posted, you just haven't seen it on your browser (so what is happening is that you're posting twice). Refreshing (at least in Firefox) doesn't clear what you've written so it should reappear. If you're in doubt, copy what you've written first, so you don't lose it.
However, I do- and giving a thankyou gift is not as raw & actually belittling as offering money ("Here you are poor person - have some of my largesse." Veddy English, totally Yank-))
I don't feel belittled when people give me money. Nor gifts. Both are good, but more often, I've got money on me, or can get it quickly. I might refuse money occasionally, but usually only because I doubted the value of what I was giving, or because I was getting something else out of it. Or, perhaps, because I perceived it as a bribe to do something dodgy.
What does giving an alternative really say that the money doesn't? That you spent time thinking about what they might want? That's fine for birthday presents for people you know, but how would I know what my waiter in a restaurant would like to have, considering that I have to bring it with me beforehand? Gifts really only make sense if they're cheaper to you than the value of them purchased by the recipient directly from a shop. That might come up a lot in a rural setting, where you tend to have a massive oversupply of some in-season product, especially since food is very widely appreciated in society. Personally, I've got the limited supply of lemons on my tree, and that's worth about $40 in a shop, per annum. I hardly think a waiter is going to appreciate my actual produce, which is computer code delivering small pieces of a large system. That's why I usually give money. If they're good, beyond the basic service.
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Islander,
So you tipped them, just not with money? Sounds like a good idea to me.
It just feels deeply wrong and un-egalitarian.
It surely isn't egalitarian. But I'm not sure egalitarianism is that great.
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Rich Lock,
I'm going to hand the debate over to some guys in sharp suits. Some NSFW language.
You'll notice he says in the middle of that spiel that he does tip for good service. Even he, with all his total lack of care for the plight of the waitresses, sees the point of tipping, which is to get good service. He was not tipping because she didn't keep filling his bottomless cup of coffee.
It's also a highly unlikely scene, as most Tarantino scenes are. If you were about to rob a bank, the last thing you'd do is draw angry attention to yourself by not tipping a waitress $1, or even worse, having a loud and insulting debate about it.
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Hard News: Auckland City Nights, in reply to Rich Lock,
So in theory, tipping is all good, but as with most human activity, the unspoken rules and assumptions generally turn it into something of a minefield. I'm more than happy to pay handsomely for a job well done, I'm just not sure that tipping is the best way to do it.
Neither am I. But I just didn't know any other way to pay the guy handsomely, other than to actually pay him. If his commission was worth a damn, I probably wouldn't have done it.
In America, factor in the tip. It's really that simple, and the maths isn't hard. Presume that it means "for average service". If you don't give it, then you're saying they gave you crap service, which is insulting if what they actually gave you is average service. And the likely outcome is that you will immediately get what you paid for, or even worse. On the flip side, if they do actually give you good service, and you liked it and want more of it, tip them more. If you don't care, and give them an average tip, expect your service to be average next time.
Yes, it's quite a different way of thinking. I'm not sure that it's such a bad way, though. We don't tip in NZ, and we get stock-standard bad service in most cases. If there is an exception it's usually quite random.
If there's a downside, it's that you can't get good service if you can't afford it. It could create a class system for services. But we have exactly the same system for goods here, if you can't afford them you can't have them. Why is service really so different? I'm open to any thoughts here, still undecided on the matter.
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