OnPoint: What gorilla?
79 Responses
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"In which case you're going to be leaving a lot of social problems well alone."
Why do you think so? I didnt say I wouldnt do anything about matters I find injust - just that I wont ally myself with religious people. As for it being 'a blinkered view' - you're entitled to think that, but I find religious people hold concepts (e.g.deities, souls, life-after-death) that are so far removed from my views of reality as to make working with them pretty well impossible. That is not so much being intolerant as it is recognising that the way religious people organise and run things is incompatible with the way I work.
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No steven crawford, Maori is an ethnicity.
And - possibly pre-empting your strand of thought -yes, I am not the only Maori atheist. The big' religious' concept among pre-Pakeha settlement Maori (and it continues to this minute) was a complex mix between noa/tapu & whakapapa/potencies (atua/hau/wairua/mauri) and it included words/places/fire/water. Te reo terms for a lot of this are often inadequately or erroneously translated-In my tribe, christian hymns & karakia are often used. I discreetly leave or simply stay unmoving when these occur.
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Bloody missionaries.
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Brought us the pox and the booze and turned our eyes toward their heaven, said my much-loved late Uncle Bill. And stole the land while we were looking-
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Because I *am* a Maori, it's not impossible at all - when we are talking/working with matters Maori. I dont go along with religious matters when they come up in a tribal setting - I thought I had made that clear? Both, if they are European-originated matters, or poorly-understood /expressedmatters o te ao motuheka/temotuheka o te ao-
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I remember we had that good conversation here a few months ago about the debasement of karakia by christianity, and Mikaere linked to a traditional example. Was just before he helped Russell craft his marae welcome at Foocamp.
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Words - sung or spoken*- can be karakia. Karakia affect people (it is a moot point whether they can deeply affect other animals - cetaceans for example (chk. the Gilbert Islands)- or whether it is 'just' the sound patterns.)
In my experience, karakia in a marae setting can be deeply Maori traditional (and almost untranslatable except by the most expert of people) or impromptu (made for the occaision) in Maori, or in Maori but christian/bahai/etc..*They can also be potencies, all by themselves-
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Words - sung or spoken*- can be karakia. Karakia affect people (it is a moot point whether they can deeply affect other animals - cetaceans for example (chk. the Gilbert Islands)- or whether it is 'just' the sound patterns.)
In my experience, karakia in a marae setting can be deeply Maori traditional (and almost untranslatable except by the most expert of people) or impromptu (made for the occaision) in Maori, or in Maori but christian/bahai/etc..*They can also be potencies, all by themselves-
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I'm not sure what you mean by 'tau' steven c: if it's 'tapu' - yes, there are areas that are tapu (one of my olds said, You dont have to *believe* in tapu - it's like electricity, it works anyway. I dont *believe* in tapu as ascribed to parts of the human body in the sense of 'holy' or 'sacred' (and that wasnt what the word meant originally.) Likewise tapu's intrinsic necessary counterpoint, noa-
-please note: these are not *religious* terms per se: they are terms invented by people seeked to understand the world, and order their society.
Ditto 'mana.'Mana exists: it is both a quality youy are born with; that you can increase, and you can kill. It has nothing to do with religion: it has everything to do with human status & action or understanding.
O, and I am certainly a comporary Maori! I'm still alive, and am an enrolled Kai Tahu.
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o damty - 'people seeking to understand"
Edit button, edit button, wherefore art thou edit button?
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(sigh) comporary = *contemporary"
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No. Religion is practise of a paticular kind: it requires
a)worship (generally of a deity or deities - essential non-human others-religion essentially demands belief in the supernatural:)
b)belief in -shall we politely call it 'the necessity' or 'requirement' of adherents of the religion to perform acts of worship and the practise thereof, however irrational
c)and/or specific acts of compliance or noncompliance (dietary/time-ordering/other proscriptions.)
My expression, 'terms invented by people seeking to understand the world, and order their society' applies as well to politics and the sciences... -
Totally agree with your first comment there steve c-
and yes, religion is generally organised, one way or the other...
Anyway, all this is way offthread, and interesting as it has been for me to read your insights/opinions, I'll leave it here.
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That the rest of the world is talking seriously about the unintended consequences of a (legal and illegal) drug policy that creates criminals and we have a LAW COMMISSION inquiring into alcohol AND illicit drug management escapes the media AND political anal'ists.
The blind adherence to the Single Conventions on Narcotics is driving the deviancy amplification and disrespect for rule of law that is choking our judicial, corrections and policing while we collectively wax lyrical about sending messages ~ to whom fur-chris-ake. We spend mega-millions on failure and sheeple keep voting for it.
Like (another) 600 police. A sign of success would be 600 less Police.
But they vote for it... like somehow they will be miraculously protected.Dont Vote for Failure, Vote for Success... reform the DYSFUNCTIONAL drug laws, remove the double standards (and save a bazzilion at the same time).
And watch the prisons (and all that it means) reduce back to where it used to be.
Open another Hospital, and a few more schools with the money thus saved....
Now there would be a politician I could vote for.
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