in reply to Ian D....normative determinism....
Legalize Real Pot, Says Fake Pot Inventor
the point...about horse riding and JWH compounds...is that.... in some/most ways it is okay to smoke and eat.... untested cancer compounds/drugs here in New Zealand...because they are "legal" highs and we have an innovative act by a mad christian....just give me the horse.... john wayne style...lets get a posse..... and head into town,,,,, partner....this is about sorting "our" thinking on drugs...spur digs into the flesh....yeeha
Sacked government drug adviser David Nutt talks to Sky News
Professor David Nutt asked to resign after his claims that ecstasy is no more harmful than horse-riding and that cannabis is less dangerous than alcohol or nicotine.
“In the long run, some form of manufacturing standard seems to me to be a good way around the risks of so-called “E” and “LSD” containing unknown substances in unknown concentrations.”
In reply to RB…tongue in cheek….of course and seeing Prof Nutt said horse riding was more dangerous than taking E….perhaps we should be getting the capital to set up the trails…oops trials...imagine the headlines….New Zealand “e” capital of the world, ….actually do Class A materials come under the act? And anyway if Roche can hoodwink governments into stocking top shelf “tamiflu” then I suppose anything is possible, even with products out of the best fordist standardized labs.
If I could be particular again.
The synthetic cannabis drama has a basis in the work of Jon W Huffman, hence the compounds JWH -018 and JWH-398 etc found in legal highs. In fact there are around 460 of these JWH compounds.
This link is an interview with Huffman, please take the time to read it.
In the article the following is noted:
"From 1984 until early this year, Huffman and his team at Clemson created 460 synthetic cannabinoid compounds for tests on lab animals. Under a $2-million federal drug grant, they studied the interaction between drugs and brain receptors.
"These receptors don't exist so that people can smoke marijuana and get high," Huffman said. "They play a role in regulating appetite, nausea, mood, pain and inflammation."
Synthetic cannabinoids are structurally different from THC, the active ingredient in marijuana. But they have the same biological effects on the human body, which is why they are useful in research.
In tests on lab animals, some have shown promise in developing treatments for pain and inflammation and some skin cancers, Huffman said.
But because of their powerful effects on brain receptors, it's extremely risky to ingest them.
"These things are dangerous — anybody who uses them is playing Russian roulette," Huffman said. "They have profound psychological effects. We never intended them for human consumption."
But after Huffman's team published its work, opportunists who saw a ready market in stoners seeking stronger highs grabbed the formulas. They mixed the pale, amber, gummy compounds with benign herbs to resemble marijuana.
Huffman said he first got calls in early 2009 about head shops selling products based on his formulas."
"If the Department of Health and Human Services recommends outlawing the five listed cannabinoids, they would remain illegal for six months. The DEA would then begin public notices and other bureaucratic procedures to permanently outlaw them. Steps to make other cannabinoids illegal could follow.
Huffman supports banning them. But he also favors legalizing and taxing marijuana.
"You can't overdose on marijuana, but you might on these compounds," he said. "These things are dangerous, and marijuana isn't, really."
Huffman recently retired from Clemson, but keeps an office at the university. He mainly spends his days in the idyllic hamlet of Sylva, where his back porch offers spectacular mountain views. He still gets phone calls "from little papers in East Podunk, Ark.," he said, asking about the potent fake pot he supposedly invented.
Huffman's real scientific legacy is his research on brain and central nervous system receptors. If you want to talk about "really good stuff," he said, consider JWH-133, another compound his team created.
"It's the best stuff we've done in terms of scientific value," he said.
The compound has been shown, in mice, to shrink brain tumors and lead to regression of non-melanoma skin cancers, suggesting a potential use in chemotherapy."
So why in New Zealand do we have products on shelves for compounds, that the man who created them, would not injest himself or encourage others to do so? How can the Health Department give even “interim” approval for their use – when the basic science that created them doesn’t have them in a state for human consumption?
It seems to me, that in our small country there is no way some fly-by-nite company such as Stargate, could ever do enough research to prove, for example that a certain JWH compound was risk free. I don’t see how the health department can even administer the act let alone consider applications under the PS Act – it just has no idea. For example the NZ Police can even hoodwink the health department when they manipulate the health departments own statistics (Maxwell report).
Huffman himself says better to legalise cannabis and ban the synthetics.
If I may be particular.
In the book PHIKAL by A Shulgin, amongst other things, he shows how small changes in chemical structure, functional groups and so on can have radically different results than what would be predicted by the structure that is often times ridiculously close to another compound. Tiny changes in dose can have very different results in humans from one compound to another a few mg either way can produce very different subjective and physical states. Shulgin was a structured worker, not only did he make the compounds but he tested them on himself. He wrote down the results of his work, and he was very methodical working the phenethylamine backbone. The PHIKAL compounds are not part of the synthetic industry, but it illustrates in a way just how, lets say fragile, matters are, when it comes to minute changes in compounds that look quite similar.
Now just look at this. This is the reality of the experiment going down in the legal high stores.
First a vaporizing blend STG-24. That product contains STG-24, at 5mg/g as the active ingredient. What is STG-24? It is something hidden from consumers because it is a “compound” from the supplier Stargate. They say with this product:
“This product is intended to be vaporised at a temperature of 190 degrees C. Do not smoke this product as it may produce pyrolysis by-products with unknown and unpredictable toxicity. It consists of natural and synthetic ingredients. It produces a psychoactive effect that can last up to half an hour. Smokers who have not tried this blend before, and smokers with a low tolerance, should try a small amount then wait 10 minutes before trying more.”
So you need some equipment, a vaporizer, you need to understand what you are doing, vaporizing an unknown compound at 190 degrees.
In the same store is “Giggle” containing same STG-24 at same dose, but is a smoking blend. What temperature do you smoke at? See above warning, same product two different administration methods. Do the smokers have a worse time? What would a rational consumer do?
One answer is, why bother with a vaporiser when I can just roll that shit up….and smoke it… combust it…at well over 190 degrees….
Then we have another product containing CL2201 as the active ingredient. Does anyone buying know or care what this is? Well it is actually another JWH compound JWH-398. Does anyone know or care about that? Well we all should because it is a “research” chemical. And this is the indole type RB discusses in other postings. That dose is 40mg/gram. JWH wouldn’t be taking the compound himself, he said so!
Then we have PB-22 a quinolone derivative at 50mg/gram…does anyone buying care?
So effectively we have an uncontrolled experiment going on. It is an experiment with youth in large part….no one is around the details especially not P Dunne nor the Ministry of Health.
We need to change the cannabis laws and get research chemicals off the streets simple as that.
It is very amusing to see this going on, while as someone said above, the cannabis elephant in the room watches!
Come on Stargate International....just what is your STG-24??? We know what your game is......markets markets and more markets from the good guys at Stargate!
Good Article RB.
The larger concern here is the credibility of the public service to actually do things in reasoned way that the public should have confidence in…like review the outdated Misuse of Drugs Act and administer the new Psycho-Active Substances act.
For example, I can show how the NDIB (Police Unit) did a study of hospital admissions caused “soley” by cannabis (Maxwell report). In rough terms the Police found that cannabis caused around 2000 admissions a year, costing $30 million and involving 60,000 bed nights. The NDIB is a joint operation of Health, Customs and Police. The Maxwell report was delivered up to Police Executive who used it to fund “operations”, that is more budget from the political masters, and a measure of the ”good they do” in preventing cannabis hospital admissions.
Big problem is that the Police misled everyone because they manipulated public Health data. The Police created a harm that did not exist. That was bad enough, but the Health department who gave the police the data, have a Copyright Notice, that states the data is not to be manipulated and they received a copy but never enquired into how the police arrived at their findings. If the Police are a thin blue line, then our public servants are karitane yellow stain!!
I have the actual ICD 10 data extract from Health and I also have the manipulated data spreadsheet cooked up by the NZ Police. All of that is bad enough…but it turns out what the Police sought to do with the data was not technically possible in the first place, and yet no one pointed that out at the start…meaning the Maxwell report was always doomed….and should never have been written let alone acted upon by the Police executive.
In summary we have a Police force making up social harms that do not exist, misleading the Courts, politicians and the tax paying public. I managed to get the Police to reluctantly remove the Maxwell report from their web site and intranet, via a complaint to the three ministers involved…but they will not go public with a proper retraction, nor are there any employment consequences for those public servants cooking the books!
There are only two possibilities, incompetence….or a Police conspiracy….both are ugly places to be.
So no, if the Police can fool you all with their “study” Dunne’s quaint Act is doomed!!
The Police are drinking at the police bar telling themselves what good job “they-done”!!
yeah, but no...$800 buck wank fest....
featuring cake cutting clowns from the NDIB...
very funny proceedings.... on the first day stop at 4.20..haha rofl...not really..gett'n my glad rags....
wow... looking forward to my "ticket" so I can "network"....
Yes, many of the pro-reformers are irritating and undisciplined and , frankly, smoke too much pot. On the other hand, there have been enough wise heads to convince three select committee inquiries and the law Commission of the need for reform. So it’s not like there’s no one patiently presenting evidence. There’s a political blockage at the top.
mmm….aw…. I dunno…like baiting a snapper on the one hand. What is the limit again?
So for example, I tried to get the original data extract “cannabis hospital admissions” from “our” ICD 10 database housed by the Ministry of Health. This data was used by NDIB to produce its cornerstone report. Health said they didn’t have it and well….. it might not match what NDIB had because they said NDIB….. may well have manipulated it….. after it was passed to them. Under OIA I asked for a copy of the ICD 10 extract. However, Police said it was “lost” and despite extensive searching it could not be located.
Now for such important “social research”, tax payer harms $30 million a year, how can you lose the data?
No data…. no checking possible, unrepeatable! And the Police claimed they had a sole causation between hospital admission and cannabis use.
Complaint to Ombudsman, six months passes, Police tell the Ombudsman data lost or incorrectly saved therefore under OIA they invoke 18 (e) request declined because document does not exist. They also invoke 18 (g)…the ‘document’ cannot be found therefore does not exist the therefore request declined. Police then go on to say to the Ombudsman they acknowledge that they did in fact “change” the raw ICD10 data….but too bad… document does not exist…..grrrrr!
So back to Health department, another six months wasted! What obstructive plonkers. Health say in June 2013 the data didn’t exist at their end either. I pointed out to them there were at least three ways to find it. By July 2013 Health had in fact, managed to find the data extract passed to NDIB.
It took me 5 minutes to see how police had changed the data, hence I could see why the data had been lost and the extraordinary lengths gone to obfuscate its discovery. So that is a waste of 18 months getting a data extract that should have been available when asked for. A terrible waste because 18 months effort to spend 5 minutes to see what had been done! IT IS OUT OF ALL PROPORTION. Didn’t someone write a book called the passionless people? Undisciplined…I think 18 months collecting “evidence” from the state, for 5 minutes of analysis, is out of all proportion to the reality of how stuff should work.
It’s bloody shocking what they have done…so here we are patiently trying discover evidence from the NZ public service…it’s all I can do to stop myself becoming very irritating and undisciplined, and frankly this is being paid for by our tax dollars…and no one is accountable for it. More fool me, no one pays my time for this wee adventure into the secret realms and workings of the NDIB.
If anyone wants to argue that manipulating public health data by the NZ Police is a healthy thing, go right ahead, I would be real interested in that form of argument!
It’s not smoking too much pot, it is the crazy way that the bureaucracy has become politicised and populated by crack pot members of a cargo cult.
Cannabis, our intelligence assessment---- is real.
Prof David Nutt is talking in Auckland Dec 6 at the medical school Auckland University. Thant should also be interesting. He is talking about “evidence” based policy, actually being used for drug matters. Novel idea!
I would like to make a pitch for one of the spots at the conference run by NZDF. I might glean some intelligence on cannabis matters.
But also would like to share what I have been working on. I have been working, as it happens, on evidence based government policy….well sort of.
The NDIB National Drug Intelligence Bureau is a joint operation run by the NZ Police, Customs, and Health. NDIB produced the Maxwell Report in 2007, called “New Cannabis: The Cornerstone of Illicit Drug Harm in New Zealand”. Amongst other things the report told citizenry that Cannabis was sending New Zealanders to hospital in record numbers, in even greater numbers than for amphetamines, cocaine and opiates combined. These thousands of hospital admissions were costing tax payers around $30 million a year and involved some 60,000 bed nights. Head of the NDIB was quoted in the Press saying he had found thousands of hospital admissions due solely to cannabis. He also said he now had a tool to show what “good” he was doing when undertaking big busts.
Well it’s an intelligence unit…so it must be true! (But in all my life I never knew a person who was admitted to hospital as a direct result of cannabis use….I smelled a rat.)
Remember Operation Lime…the assault on indoor gardening shops….Rob Pope from the NZ Police said the operation would “break the cornerstone of the cannabis industry”. The Police based all the funding they got for “operations” on the Maxwell harm report.
So after several years investigating, letters, OIA, Ombudsman,…lost data etc. I sent a 60 page letter, plus attachments to the departments pointing out that the cannabis harm did not actually exist, it had been made up after manipulating public health data. I even obtained the actual spreedsheets they used to arrive at their numbers, so it’s not speculation on my part.
Well I wrote a letter no one could reply to. I had to complain to the Ministers.
And just a month ago, I was advised that the Maxwell report has been removed from the Police web site and removed from the Police intranet. You won’t find a retraction notice yet, still working on that one. However, I am hoping they will do what is required….before I do it on their behalf.
Oh yes and not only did the Maxwell report manipulate data it plagiarized. Yes word for word copied and not a reference or quote mark in site! They even changed the footnote numbers they copied from the original so it looked like their referencing work…such attention to detail from the intelligence officers.
So sadly for the New Zealand Police they once again bring the police (themselves) and the public service into disrepute. Health provided the data, is on the NDIB, but did not check the Maxwell report, so they must be part of the conspiracy.
This situation oddly seems to give the appearance that the NZ Police are a self-serving gang, manipulating data, making up rules, and medical causation s to suit their operations and defending the indefensible as the nails scrape down the blackboard of the intelligence briefing room. Misleading the politicians, justice system and the public. If my NCEA Level child had delivered up the Maxwell report as an assignment, it would have failed to pass…strange that Maxwell is a document from an intelligence unit underpinning Police and Justice operational matters. I guess we are small country …ripe pickings for intelligence units…and evidence based policy!
Hope that made some of you tokers smile…and some will be reaching for a stiff gin!
But it’s not funny for the owners of SOG, who sit in jail as a result of Operation Lime and Bitters….they may well feel very cross and bitter now.