Awful in more than one way

10:47 Apr 18, 2007 256

You just knew that Instapundit and Michelle Malkin would respond to the Virginia Tech massacre by implying that it wouldn't have happened if VTech hadn't been a gun-free campus, but you'd think they might have been able to wait more than a couple of hours after the deaths to start the politicking.

The gun-control argument in the US is impenetrable and pretty much pointless for outsiders to engage with - although John Howard slated US "gun culture" yesterday - and the fact that the shooting coincided with a National Rifle Association convention that drew a staggering 60,000 delegates underlines the fact that what I think hardly matters anyway.

But I did like this counterblast to Glenn Reynolds and the there-just-weren't-enough-guns-on-campus argument from a local resident:

And maybe, if you'd thought for two seconds, you would have figured out that even the most fervent gun owner probably wouldn't think to take their gun to their morning ENGINEERING CLASS.
And maybe, Glenn, if you'd thought any longer than that, you would have realized that we don't live in a video game or a Clint Eastwood movie and that even a skilled and responsible gun owner who just happened to think, "Wow, maybe I'll take my gun to class just in case some crazy guy bursts in and unloads two clips into the crowd," who just happened to have that gun sitting in their lap and not packed in their bag, and who just happened to be staring directly at the door and not taking notes or listening to the lecture when some crazy guy did, in fact, burst in with both barrels blazing would still probably have been too busy hiding behind his or her desk and/or bleeding to death to do any good.

But you didn't stop to think, did you Glenn, because you don't give a rat's ass for Blacksburg and you don't give even half a rat's ass for the dead and wounded. You just wanted to score a cheap point. You saw the news that upwards of twenty young students had been killed and thought, "What a PERFECT time to say something stupid!"
I know we on the left get a lot of flak for bad language here on the left. And I know we've got a reputation for being angry, but there's only one thing to say here.
Fuck you Glenn Reynolds. Fuck you.
And stay the fuck out of my town.

Anyway, if you'd like a Glock 19 of your own, these guys are happy to sell you one in any flavour you like. Although the consumer reviews ("Never has a gun made such a fashion statement as the Glock did when it made its debut in the eighties") are average.

Elsewhere on the internets, some news organisations got the wrong armed-to-the-teeth Asian guy, the Chicago Tribune couldn't tell the difference between Chinse and Korean, people flocked to GoDaddy to register VTech massacre-related domain names, and Newsvine was <a href="http://www.searchmarketinggurus.com/search_marketing_gurus/2007/04/newsvine_
beats_.html" target="_blank">adjudged to have beaten Digg and Reddit to the news, the Washington Post continues to round up blog and social network site responses. And dozens and dozens of people were killed on another day in Iraq.

256 responses to this post

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Herr Dummkopf von Kranken-Brainen, 11:23 Apr 18, 2007

Was anyone else disturbed by the emphasis the Herald gave to the shooter being a recent immigrant? Seriously, how the heck is that relevant to the tragedy?

Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4 posts Report
noizyboy, 11:26 Apr 18, 2007

a recent immigrant
he's lived in the US for 15 years or so?
Does that make people under 15 "recent humans"?

wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 171 posts Report
BenWilson, 11:29 Apr 18, 2007

Yes, comments on how the US should be run are never welcomed by Americans. The rebuttal that you're free to leave is somewhat compelling. However, this kind of incident does give us plenty of ammo to say that *our* countries needn't model our gun laws around the US.
Sick, shocking. Sure. But as you say, dozens and dozens died in Iraq in equally sick, shocking and stupid ways. And probably hundreds in Darfur. I'm losing all enthusiasm for even thinking about the US, much less moralizing at them.

Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report
Kyle Matthews, 11:30 Apr 18, 2007

I was watching Campbell Live when he interviewed Philip Alpers, who's in the gun control side of the argument (and Fair Go!).
He said there was a group in Virginia, whose basic purpose was to carry around loaded and unconcealed weapons and go into places like restaurants and movie theatres and whatnot, solely for the purpose of blatantly pointing out their right to do so. A, "You can't tell me where I can't carry a weapon, so I'm going to carry it everywhere".
And a gun nut who argued that the best response to Columbine would have been to arm all teachers with guns.
One of my best friends graduated from Virgina Tech in the late nineties. She had a really rough, quiet thoughtful day yesterday. I can't think that morons arguing for more guns really helped her very much, or indeed anyone who was actually on campus.
So many levels of fucked up, it's hard to know where to begin.

Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report
Josh Addison, 11:40 Apr 18, 2007

An extra layer of pointlessness is added by all the hypotheticals being thrown around:
"If everyone was allowed to have guns with them, someone would have been able to shoot the guy before too many people died."
"Or maybe a campus full of armed panicking people who've been told that there's a crazy gunman on the loose would start shooting at anyone they saw carrying a gun, causing even more deaths."
Which one's right? Well, neither, because they're both totally imaginary situations.

Onehunga, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report
Danyl Mclauchlan, 11:40 Apr 18, 2007

I was in Houston when Columbine happened and more than a little freaked out when most of my workmates explained to me that it would never have happened if all the teachers and senior students had been carrying concealed guns.
My incredulous response was that arming teachers and students in case someone went crazy with a gun was met with equal incredulity from my workmates. 'You think everyone should just walk around unarmed so anyone can shoot us?' Most people had handguns in their offices and cars. Our IT manager kept what he claimed was a live grenade in the top drawer of his desk. It really is a different world.

Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report
Raymond A Francis, 11:40 Apr 18, 2007

Good post Russell
A couple of points though
Interesting that here in NZ the killings were imediatly linked by the media to more gun control
I might add it is easier to buy a firearm here (once you have the necessary paper work) than in just about any US state
I think that Virginia has one of the most lax set of laws
And I am lead to believe if you want an ilegal one here that is not to difficult either
In the course of studying the US firearms culture I have come across reference to it being considered normal (where legal) to carry a concealled firearm everywhere including Sunday church. A bit hard for us to get our head around that
But I do note that these killing took place in one of the very few places in Virginia that had a gun free culture
As you note this just right outside our experience even though we are a country that has a culture of using and owning firearms. I think the difference as that we tend to use them against animals and not people

45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 578 posts Report
Mark Easterbrook, 11:42 Apr 18, 2007

Was anyone else disturbed by the emphasis the Herald gave to the shooter being a recent immigrant? Seriously, how the heck is that relevant to the tragedy?
As I noted over in another thread, the Herald online has changed the story to 15 years, while the print edition ran with the 1 month, recent immigrant error.

Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 265 posts Report
wasabicube, 11:44 Apr 18, 2007

I was distressed and saddened by yesterday's massacre. However, as in your final point, I couldn't help thinking that carnage on the scale would represent an average day in Iraq. All, equally, innocent victims but the latter, understandably, without the in-depth media analysis.

Whangaparaoa • Since Nov 2006 • 15 posts Report
Mark Easterbrook, 11:48 Apr 18, 2007

Interesting side note on NZ gun laws: I was talking to my cousin, a police officer, a couple of weeks ago. His private firearms licence had expired and he was taking his .22 rifle to my dad's farm to be stored in his gun safe. He couldn't renew his licence because it was a bit expensive and he's short of cash at the moment.
I expressed my surprise that, as a member of the body that issues gun licences, he doesn't just get given one for free. Turns out being a sworn police officer gives you the legal right to handle firearms while on duty, but off-duty you're as bound by our gun laws as any other private citizen.
I actually found that quite reassuring.

Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 265 posts Report
Heather Gaye, 11:50 Apr 18, 2007

Was anyone else disturbed by the emphasis the Herald gave to the shooter being a recent immigrant? Seriously, how the heck is that relevant to the tragedy?
Well, obviously being from south korea has a lot to do with it. I don't know much about south korea, but those north koreans want to blow up the US with nuclear bombs, so the south koreans must have a hand in that too.
I couldn't help thinking that carnage on the scale would represent an average day in Iraq.
That'd be their gun-free culture.

Morningside • Since Nov 2006 • 533 posts Report
Craig Ranapia, 11:50 Apr 18, 2007

Yes, comments on how the US should be run are never welcomed by Americans.
Well, no, Ben. Just as I don't think the National Rifle Association's views on New Zealand's firearms laws -- and their less than stellar enforcement -- would be particularly well received. I never thought I'd write this, but I was less than come. With all due disrespect, I think people in these parts who want to get their sneer about America's 'gun culture' - and paint a picture of Rambos on every corner - should ask themselves why the events depicted in this movie still touched some very raw emotions sixteen years later.
And, Kyle, you can reduce any debate to its lunatic fringes while emotions are (understandably) sky high. I personally don't think political posturing over open graves is constructive let alone in anything less than appalling taste.

North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report
Heather Gaye, 11:54 Apr 18, 2007

oh, </sarc>, just in case someone didn't get that.

Morningside • Since Nov 2006 • 533 posts Report
Russell Brown, 12:01 Apr 18, 2007

Yes, comments on how the US should be run are never welcomed by Americans. The rebuttal that you're free to leave is somewhat compelling. However, this kind of incident does give us plenty of ammo to say that *our* countries needn't model our gun laws around the US.
I think part of the problem is that they can't undo the firearms proliferation they have now. There are just too many guns already.
But would any sane government move to create such a situation? Not in a million years. Even the Sporting Shooters Association of New Zealand seems to have lost the vibe. Their website hasn't been updated in more than a year.
It still does, however, display a badge on its home page for the Second Amendment Foundation. WTF? Whose constitution is this?

Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report
Hadyn Green, 12:03 Apr 18, 2007

I was surprised when watching (the fantastic) Pardon The Interruption on ESPN to hear the presenters agree that this would not have happened if it wasn't possible for Americans to easily obtain guns.
On ESPN!!!! The sports network!!!
(the presenters are veteran journalists from the Washington Post)

Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report
Danyl Mclauchlan, 12:04 Apr 18, 2007

I think people in these parts who want to get their sneer about America's 'gun culture' - and paint a picture of Rambos on every corner - should ask themselves why the events depicted in this movie still touched some very raw emotions sixteen years later.
The obvious difference between tragedies like Aramoana, the Port Arthur Massacre, Dunblane ect and the constant mass-murders in the US is that in other countries these massacres act as a wake-up call and lead to much stricter gun-control laws and a subsequent - touch wood - decline in random mass-killings. This never happens in the US and they're now at the absurd point where the debate is about whether giving everybody more guns will help prevent these tragedies.

Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report
Craig Ranapia, 12:07 Apr 18, 2007

Bugger... preview is your friend I left a dangling fragment in the middle of a comment.
I should have finished it by saying:
"I never thought I'd write this, but I was less than impressed with Geoff Robinson's lthis rather odd interview (forward to around the seven minute mark) . Was I the only person who found myself wondering if Geoff was on a fishing expedition to confirm that Virginia is little more than Deadwood with broadband access? I think expat VTech student Gordon Kohler (?) was remarkably self-possessed despite his obvious shock, and I couldn't agree more with his comment that there will be plenty of time for the politics to play out. But this isn't the time, and IMO New Zealand certainly isn't the place.
Please listen to the audio, and tell me whether you'd write Gordon off as a Rambo-wannabe 'gun nut'.

North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report
Tom Ackroyd, 12:10 Apr 18, 2007

For another sobering demonstration of the numbers of casualties in Iraq see this map from the BBC.

Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 159 posts Report
Francisco Blaha, 12:12 Apr 18, 2007

It makes anyone sad when innocent lives are lost... but It saddens me more (and found it very hypocritical), that all media (and we as public) makes a huge issue of this incident, when EVERY day almost the same amount of innocent lives are lost in Iraq, and almost no one mentions it anymore... are they lives not worth the same?

Since Dec 2006 • 18 posts Report
rodgerd, 12:12 Apr 18, 2007

The obvious difference between tragedies like Aramoana, the Port Arthur Massacre, Dunblane ect and the constant mass-murders in the US is that in other countries these massacres act as a wake-up call and lead to much stricter gun-control laws and a subsequent - touch wood - decline in random mass-killings
Actually, I think that's one of the dumbest aspects of reactions to situations like Aramoana. A sufficiently motivated and focused nutjob can and will find a way to wreck mayhem if he or she so wishes. The main value I see in not allowing every man and his dog easy access to firearms, especially handguns, is that it makes spur-of-the-moment killings that bit harder, not that it prevents someone determined to go down and take a bunch of others with them.
The problem the US has with firearms is not the high-profile mass murders, it's the number of people who are killed by someone they live with who thought the deceased was an intruder, or the people who have ready access to a gun for a suicide attempt, or the people who have a handgun on them when they lose their temper in a pub.
They also have a problem with a realtively more violent society than comparable Westen nations that would likely persist even if you took the firearms away.
But I echo Russell's bemusement at the people who look at the US for guidence on the best way to manage firearms. There are, after all, countries with reasonably high availablility of firearms who don't have anything like the degree of firearms related problems. Why import a broken model?

Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report
Tom Semmens, 12:17 Apr 18, 2007

I've never been to the USA, but observation from afar makes me suspect that the United States has an incredibly conformist culture that doesn't handle difference or even eccentricity well outside the liberal coasts. Anyone who has been there, kindly tell me if this is so.
Its just that it seems to me outstanding feature of Columbine and this slaughter is the social isolation of the killer from society. Mix in lots of easily available guns designed solely for killing people (what else is a 9mm automatic pistol good for?), the institutionalisation of violence and torture at the highest level and you've got a recipe for massacre.

Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2217 posts Report
hamishm, 12:18 Apr 18, 2007

they can't undo the firearms proliferation they have now. There are just too many guns already
That's it right there. The Glock is out of the holster so to speak. On another largely American forum I put forward the idea of a Gun Death Toll, like the road toll.
The U.S. can't seem to get a national strategy on gun use and they can't get states to cordinate so it will always be easy to go to the next door state to get a gun there.
There should be a level of gun fatalities that is deemed acceptable to the general public. Individual states and the federal government should work to limit the levels of fatalities to that level.
When this is achieved they could start to work on the illegal weapons.
Strangely this eminently sensible proposal was met with silence from the American posters.

Since Nov 2006 • 357 posts Report
Ben Austin, 12:19 Apr 18, 2007

Is it just me or are the parallels drawn with Iraq, or indeed other violent deaths that happen daily both obvious and needless? We all know here that lots of people die in Iraq through violence, we know that is bad, we know that it was in large part caused by American action, but do we need to talk about it here in this thread about a college massacre?
I don't think so.

London • Since Nov 2006 • 1027 posts Report
Russell Brown, 12:19 Apr 18, 2007

I might add it is easier to buy a firearm here (once you have the necessary paper work) than in just about any US state
Not quite the right way of looking at it. You can own a hunting rifle or shotgun plus ammo here with a standard firearms license, which requires background checks etc. But the 3% of gun owners who have pistols or semi-automatics require a separate, much stricter license and are subject to rules about gun storage etc.
The kind of weapon you can buy and own in most places in the US - without impediment if it's a "personal" transaction at a gun show - is in another realm.
The way the famous hunter Jim Zumbo was crucified by the NRA last year when he opined that he didn't much approve of people using military assault weapons ("terrorist rifles" was his phrase) for hunting underlined the mindset. The response was unbelievably vicious.
I know I said I wasn't going to bother arguing, but I just don't understand it.

Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report
Danyl Mclauchlan, 12:21 Apr 18, 2007

I think that's one of the dumbest aspects of reactions to situations like Aramoana. A sufficiently motivated and focused nutjob can and will find a way to wreck mayhem if he or she so wishes.
But can you point to any specific examples of this happening?

Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report